69 question

Discussion in 'Gibson SG' started by 515who, Jan 27, 2019.

  1. 515who

    515who Active Member

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    I have someone looking to sell a 69 SG. It comes across something seems fishy. First off, the guy says it has no serial number on it, and doesn't seem like it has original pickups. neck has a crack that was fixed it seems.

    Is it possible it never had a serial number? and if I can't identify if it's really a 69 then it's just an SG. Maybe not even a gibson. thoughts?
     

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  2. pancake81

    pancake81 Well-Known Member

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    Yup, listen to your gut instinct!

    I am going to start, but I am not a Vintage SG expert; but rest assured, they will chime in soon.

    Would Gibson release a guitar with no serial #?
    No, they didn’t. However, keep in mind this guitar is 50 years old. No spring chicken, so it could be re-necked, or...
    - new headstock due to break (unlikely)
    - new neck and headstock(more common)
    - refinish (most likely). However, natural finish wear appears correct for vintage guitar. Could be an early refin or neck replacement, falling under the vintage years.

    Tuning pegs looks off to me for 69. But others will chime in and clarify.

    Bridge appears to be an after market “bad ass wrap around”. Common “upgrade” during those years

    Headstock looks wider than I expect for a 69, but photos can be difficult to tell from photos.

    If I had to take a guess... I would say a 69(ish) SG Special with a replaced neck and headstock. However, The headstock misses a few key features I would expect
    1) a serial #
    2) the distinct mustache shape at the very top lines of the headstock. this one appears rounded with no “M” shape.
    3) the truss road cover appears to lack the white edge from the white layer of the multiple ply cover. Also appears to lack the bell shape, but your photo isn’t great.
    4) But to add to confusion, or concern for a buyer, you are missing the Gibson “holly” or “crown” mother of pearl inlay in the center of the headstock. A definite red flag.

    The pickguard also appears to lack the multiple ply (black white black) layering, which doesn’t necessarily flag the guitar as a fake, but is red flag.


    The pickguard also appears to lack the appropriate black/white/black ply layering which one would expect. So another eye brow raise.


    Until you are satisfied In person, or one of our local experts chime in, I would not send money with confidence.

    If your seeing in person, pay relative to how it plays.

    My .02 cents.

    From my knowledge, a 69 headstock should have this distinct shape:
    [​IMG]

    This one appear different: looks at the shape at the top
    [​IMG]

    69 pickguard:
    [​IMG]

    Pickguard you posted :
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2019
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  3. 515who

    515who Active Member

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  4. 515who

    515who Active Member

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    Thanks very much pancake81. That's very helpful. See now I left out (forgot) that he did mention "the serial was on the old neck". I actually didn't realize it could have had a neck replaced so it sounded off to me. But that raises the question why was the neck replaced with no serial number? Could it be an after market neck? if so that would kill the value, in my eyes anyway. and i failed to mention he did say the tuning machines are new Gibson. not vintage. (sorry for leaving that stuff out initially).

    So realistically, it's sounding like this is a 69 but the history sounds like original neck was replaced and replaced neck was cracked and repaired. That could explain the different shaped headstock.

    If that's the case I think it's cool but Im not sure what I should offer with a neck like this. The only way to know is to meet up and check out how it feels. But even if it feels good, the value can't be that great with a neck history like this?
     
  5. pancake81

    pancake81 Well-Known Member

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    A real Gibson with a neck/headstock replacement that’s not authentic Gibson is worth as much as much as a replica. In my opinion anyways. It raises the question, why would someone not repair and use the original broken headstock..? And if it was truly damaged beyond repair (these things happen, think of Pete Townsend :)), why would you use a fake/aftermarket neck or head stock to repair it?

    It doesn’t make sense. It could still be an awesome guitar. But it’s notnworth anywhere near a vintage price.

     
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  6. cerebral gasket

    cerebral gasket Well-Known Member

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    My first SG was a 1969 SG Special. The neck and headstock is completely wrong on this one as pointed out above.

    A 1969 SG Special will have a bound neck with dots, no crown inlay on headstock. The dot over the “i” on headstock logo will be missing for that year. Headstocks were not wide in 1969.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2019
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  7. bwotw

    bwotw Well-Known Member

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    Unless it has a reaaaaally low price, I'd pass. Nothing original but the wood (on the body, at least!). Finish is also gone, everything (even the pickguard!) looks replaced...
     
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  8. dub-setter

    dub-setter Well-Known Member

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    depends for how much hes selling it for..:smile:

    if it s not that far away i would check it out in person,
    see if its a playable one, and then decide.
     
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  9. Ray

    Ray Well-Known Member

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    Agree on all thats been said here.. that head looks fishy... no crown combined with trapezoids. As mentioned, the missing mustache form is one thing, but to me it looks like the head is missing some length?
    I think the head should be " longer ", the logo looks too close to the tuners. Could be the photo, all tis, but I would not pay much for this...
    Edit: on older Gibsons it looks like the logo was placed a bit closer to the tuning pegs ...? I dont know but ...
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2019
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  10. 515who

    515who Active Member

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    Thanks, all this feedback is great and exactly what I was thinking too. He's looking for an offer, didn't say how much wanted. I cant see offering more than 400 with this much going on with it, and that's assuming it feels decent to play.
     
  11. 515who

    515who Active Member

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    true. good points. great info ty!
     
  12. pancake81

    pancake81 Well-Known Member

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    Keep us posted on how you proceed, or what the seller says
     
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  13. 515who

    515who Active Member

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    Well, he was looking for a number from me and wouldn't send me high res photos until I gave him one so I said bec of all the points of concern and uncertainty I said I was in the 450 range. I figured he was probably looking for some number much higher, but unless I can get better photos to know what Im dealing with how can I offer more?

    He said the pick guard wasn't original, pickups either. he thought the wiring was. photos of the wiring would be helpful. SO looks like he's not happy with me for low balling him (In his eyes it was a low ball offer I guess). He wasn't rude back but he clearly was done dealing with me.

    But I thank everyone involved here. It was good to bounce this stuff around. Im no SG expert.
     
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  14. pancake81

    pancake81 Well-Known Member

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    You bet, and no worries 515 that’s what we are here for.

    My guess is he is hoping someone will jump on it out of excitement and not make these discoveries until after they are home and he is counting his cash.

    When someone doesn’t send high resolution photos or have an asking price, it’s a huge red flag. Most guitar nuts know exactly what they have, and know what they want for it. I think you made the right call on this one. Personally I wouldn’t touch it.
     
  15. 515who

    515who Active Member

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    Thx much

    I liked the guitar but not sure how the dude could expect me to offer a real number with no better shots. Like you said he was prob just trying to scam someone. I made a folder for him to upload photos to my dropbox and everything. Oh well. Great getting the feedback from you and everyone else here.
     
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  16. pancake81

    pancake81 Well-Known Member

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    Check back in when you have the next guitar on the line. We would enjoy seeing what’s out there and help make sure buyers like yourself don’t get the short end of the stick.

    Be thankful you are one of the smart ones that does some research. Someone will soon swoop in and buy that 69(ish) standard/special, rebuild.... for top dollar no doubt.

    All to often we read posts started by folks asking what they just bought, and it’s too late. Or worse yet, they don’t post photos of their new guitar and someone here has to break it to them that they got screwed. Not very nice, but someone has to be honest.

    Best of luck with your search. Don’t shy away from reverb many nice guitars on there. Or if you are looking for vintage let me know I can post some websites I keep an eye on. I am more of a window shopper these days.

     
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  17. syscokid

    syscokid Well-Known Member

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    Another old guitar modding projet brought to you by... BEER!
     
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  18. 515who

    515who Active Member

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    Thank you. I have a few other projects I need to get pulled together. This just happened to jump out on me as a possible deal. I should have realized the guy was thinking he had a guitar worth a lot. and he may, but I never got photos...sooooooo what can ya do! thx again
     
  19. Col Mustard

    Col Mustard Well-Known Member

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    I would never touch this "guitar." There are so many decent SGs for
    sale that are no more and no less than they seem, there is no reason to
    even consider buying something that seems fishy. Don't throw your
    money away.

    First of all, if the serial number is gone, that raises the suspicion that
    the instrument was stolen. Run, don't walk away from buying stolen
    guitars. If it has no serial number and can't be verified, then it's worth
    nothing.

    Second, if several details of the instrument are incorrect for what the
    seller claims, then maybe all of them are. Who cares? It's not hard
    to find an honest deal on a real Gibson. For $450 dollars you could buy
    a used SG faded special that will enhance your music.

    Third, even if it was real, it's a hack job. Just step away.
    if the guitar was mercilessly butchered and "improved..." then
    all of the mojo of the sixties is gone, and it's no longer a vintage guitar
    but only a POS. If you bought this and found out it was partly real
    and partly cobbled, you'd have a hard time unloading it for the same
    reasons I've listed. Bad idea IMHO.
     
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  20. Susihukkanen

    Susihukkanen Well-Known Member

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    Too bad we are about 4200 miles apart. I might sell you a nice 69 SG.
    You can find some photos of the guitar here: http://www.everythingsg.com/threads/tell-me-about-67-68-69-sg-standard.22929/
     

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