Fibsons

Discussion in 'SG Copies' started by Mayfly, Oct 3, 2009.

  1. smitty_p

    smitty_p Well-Known Member

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    Sure there is. And, the counterfeiters are getting better at making them less detectable. Those who know what to look for can still spot the imposters, but some of the tell-tale signs have been corrected.

    Who knows? They may even peruse guitar forums and YouTube to learn what we look for in identifying a fake!
     
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  2. PermissionToLand

    PermissionToLand Well-Known Member

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    Sure, why not? Chinese manufacturers have been building guitars since around 2000 or so, they have surely learned a lot since then. It doesn't matter where a guitar was made, what matters is HOW it was made. Remember, most Japanese manufacturers started out making copies. That said, he could have gotten lucky as I suspect they still don't have the standards of Epiphone's Qingdao plant, generally speaking. And of course, the ethics are debatable. If you just want it for yourself, and will not ever misrepresent it as a real Gibson, I don't see a problem with it, no different from building your own copy like legendary builder Kris Derrig who made Slash's AFD Les Paul (which is ironically now counterfeited by Chinese builders). That's my opinion anyway.
     
  3. Relic61

    Relic61 Well-Known Member

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    No debate with me. If we are talking ethics it is both ethically wrong & illegal. When something such as this is blatantly illegal it has to be thought of & considered unethical.

    Now look at the situation we are in because these types of unethical actions were tolerated & or not pursued, litigated, punished or effectively stopped!

    I don't care to turn this into a political rant as much as I want to emphasize the eventual consequences of us not taking these things seriously or duly weighing our personal ethical responsibility not to be a part of this chain that supports it in any way.
     
  4. PermissionToLand

    PermissionToLand Well-Known Member

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    There are also levels of ethic. Going 1 mph over the limit is technically unethical but on the scale of things, it's not so bad. As I said, if you're not intending to deceive anyone with it, I don't think it's that big of a deal.

    How do you feel about a respected luthier like Kris Derrig making a replica with the Gibson name on it?
     
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  5. Relic61

    Relic61 Well-Known Member

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    To me the differences are obvious when comparing Chinese corporate mass production of Gibson knockoffs vs a Luthier hand crafting an instrument. What China does with these types of things as well as intellectual property & US developed technology / innovation is extremely hurtful on many levels which frankly pales in comparison to a skilled luthier hand manufacturing tribute guitars.

    While both can be 'wrong', what China does causes real damage & hurt to American companies, inventors & workers &.. it should not be made light of or condoned by any American or law honoring world citizen. Not seeing or understanding the serious harm on a grand scale being done by China is a very real part of the problem because it supports & perpetuates the problem! And I just can't see any American finding out & understanding the truth about the extent, damage & potential dangers when it comes to loss of our technology ans still condoning it on any level.

    So to be blunt, my personal issues with Chines knockoffs extends far beyond the manufacturing of Chibsons. Chibsons are just a small part of the wrong being done to America & our best interests. The behavior needs to be condemned every time it's brought up. To make light or be a part of supporting what China is doing with the manufacture of Gibson knockoffs is simply condoning it & supporting all the wrongful damage, loss of revenue, loss of jobs, loss of intellectual property & commandeering of technology that Chinese companies get away with & profit over at our collective expense & potential peril down the road.

    Yah, it's that big a deal and I think we are going to actually see something negotiated with the US & China when the current tariff tit for tat gets worked out. Currently, China's economy is taking a beating while the US is prospering. This is a sure sign that China currently can not compete with America in this arena & it would be in both countries best interests to comply with agreed upon laws governing honoring US copyright.

    A nation honoring law brings honor to a nation.
     
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  6. PermissionToLand

    PermissionToLand Well-Known Member

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    Differences in quality, sure. But ethically? And I'm not talking about similar "tribute" guitars, I'm talking about this:

    [​IMG]

    That is also stealing intellectual property and technology (which... is how the world works. Technological advancements cannot be built upon if they are hoarded. How do you think the luthiery profession continued for centuries? By passing on knowledge).

    How are Chinese fakes doing any more damage than American fakes? American luthiers can actually challenge Gibson in quality, unlike the Chinese. Chibsons are nothing more than a novelty. I really don't think you have any way of quantifying any damage done to Gibson by the Chinese, so you can't really act like everyone should just agree with you because you say it's so.

    Also, as I've said time and again here, Gibson having any rights to the LP body shape is absolute horseshit. It's THE generic folk bodyshape. Also, the open book headstock design predates Gibson's use by at least a century. However, I don't condone putting the Gibson name on anything that is not a Gibson, as that's what intellectual property was intended to cover. And that is exactly how Japan conducts themselves, and I don't see any way you could call them "a nation without honor"...

    As far as other industries go, again, I draw a line between counterfeiting and simply copying technology. How do you think the Japanese rebuilt their automotive industry so quickly after the war? You realize there are even businesses dedicated to reverse-engineering competitor's products:

    https://jalopnik.com/the-fascinating-company-that-tears-cars-apart-to-find-o-1787205420

    Frankly, your whole rant is coming off as dog-whistle xenophobia. "To even question my narrative that China is evil and attacking/destroying America makes you complicit!" Get lost with that ****. American companies come into every emerging market and immediately dominate it because the domestic industries are too underdeveloped to compete. They do not have a "right to profit" from a country as they have literally argued in court. I do not blame China for protecting their domestic industries that would otherwise be obliterated by American powerhouses in what you'd un-ironically call "free/fair trade".

    Ask the American farmers or steel industry how that "prosperity" is treating them. Yeah, this tariff "tit for tat" will totally "just work out"...
     
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  7. SG standard

    SG standard Well-Known Member

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    That's a good point - and it echoes the claims made about illegal digital downloads that have typically suggested every download equals a loss of sales, which they clearly didn't. It's unlikely any significant numbers of people would buy a £250 Chibson instead of a £2,500 Gibson, perhaps no one would. Especially when you consider that you can actually buy a much cheaper Gibson, if you're willing to forgo the gloss finish, bound body, etc., of the high end Les Paul. 'Serious buyers' are more likely to choose the genuine Gibson at a lower price point, than the flashy but sub-standard fake. Of course, this could change as the fakers start to improve, but they've really got to surpass Gibson's quality to offer more than the genuine article.

    A similar thing occurs with counterfeit designer clothes, bags, shoes, etc., which is a much bigger global market. The damage is really in the impact on the luxury brand, when large numbers of 'less well off' people are seen with the brand, and the image of the brand is diluted - something that I doubt applies to Gibson.

    I suspect there is a bigger threat from the high-end handmade Gibson inspired Guitar - even those that don't have a fake Gibson logo. These may be produced in relatively small numbers, but by a lot of people around the world, and they're bought by people who clearly like the Gibson design/style, but are choosing not to buy the brand (for whatever reasons). Of course, these aren't fakes or counterfeits as such.
     
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  8. Relic61

    Relic61 Well-Known Member

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    To save any more of this long winded back 'n forth let me simplify & say that if it is illegal it is automatically wrong in the eyes of the law. When we act outside the boundaries of legality we enter the realm of being unethical simply by that fact alone.

    Second, name calling or labeling things
    is a BS way of skewing a legitimate & honest conversation & essentially slandering me & my ideas as wrong/bad/& or illegitimate.
    And you are bordering that political rant I wanted to avoid that is all too apparent in your defense of China & contempt for American companies. Why hell, you went & jumped right into that pit of $#it feet first!

    You went & took it there! Obviously we have 2 different point of views & 2 different allegiances so you can continue to have what is sure to further devolve into slander-fest with more finger pointing name calling & identity politics without me being involved because,.. I have learned trying to converse with people that are compelled to attach ugly names & label your views & engage in left leaning slander tactics are a waste of time trying to actually converse with as there is seemingly no good that comes from this waste of energy. Or simply put, there are hundreds of better things to do with our time than for people like me & you to hammer at each other repeatedly on such things. You can love & defend China & what it does all you like, I'm not going to call you names over it.

    Before I excuse myself I will reiterate, this was a discussion on China knockoffs & subsequently a question directed at me about a Luthier copying a Gibson. Now it is an anti-American anti-American business rant. Fvk that $#it. It doesn't belong in a guitar forum, PERIOD! & our rules & guidelines state it for a very good reason!

    My comments on China were meant as a factual representation of the grand scale to which they profit off of & steal American ideas, technology & intellectual property. Regardless of who else does it (or whatever else like it) the bottom line free of all "dog-whistle xenophobia" is that China does this & does it on a very large scale AND.. it hurts real Americans & costs Americans greatly.
    To try to label that factual statement as dog-whistle xenophobia would be avoiding & trying to de-legitimize truth & reality. Why? Because you hate America? American businesses? Americans?

    What's the point of saying 'well so & so does this or so & so did that'? when the point is that China does it, has been doing it for years & has been getting away with it at the expense of American interests AND IT IS WRONG!
     
  9. Norlin SG

    Norlin SG Well-Known Member

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    Maybe the reason you are having a hard time impressing chicks is be cause you wear womans under garments. (undies)
     

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