Headstock angle of a Gibson guitar ...

Discussion in 'Tone Zone' started by DrBGood, Mar 15, 2019.

  1. Biddlin

    Biddlin Well-Known Member

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    Some of us may be more cognizant of weight than others.
     
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  2. DrBGood

    DrBGood Well-Known Member

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    :rofl:
     
  3. DrBGood

    DrBGood Well-Known Member

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    You're trying to tell me that my really shallow angle at the bridge is like tuning down one full step ?
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
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  4. cerebral gasket

    cerebral gasket Well-Known Member

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    What is this "weight" that you speak of?
     
  5. Biddlin

    Biddlin Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
    :lol:
    The length of string behind the saddle has mass. Dragging it across the saddle adds friction, too.
    Raising the stop bar shortens the string slightly and alleviates some of the friction by lowering the pressure on the saddle.

    Wrapover eliminates both issues.
     
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  6. Thumpalumpacus

    Thumpalumpacus Well-Known Member

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    No. I'm trying to tell you that adjusting the tension changes how the strings feel under your fingers. I used a more-extreme example so that readers might understand the point. Changing break angles will change the way the string feels under your fingers. Try decking your tailpiece. You'll feel it for yourself, even once you retune.

    I wasn't arguing that the two were identical. I was pointing out that tension affects the feel of the strings under one's fingers, and using what I thought was a clearer example, I wasn't equating the two. Hope that helps.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
  7. DrBGood

    DrBGood Well-Known Member

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    ? ? ?
    Friction I get, but weight ?
    How many milligrams would that be ?

    BTW, finished painting the bathroom. Looks great !
     
  8. DrBGood

    DrBGood Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I get what you're saying.
    But even if I concentrate real hard, I can't feel a difference between top wrap TOM and wraparound. I'm not in the some of us group I guess, I must be a brute with no finesse. Sounds great though :h5:
     
  9. cerebral gasket

    cerebral gasket Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it works that way as it is not a linear function. Since we are dealing with the relationship of angles over a TOM Bridge and Tailpiece setup, there is going to be some trigonometry involved calculating downforce over the bridge.

    https://www.liutaiomottola.com/formulae/downforce.htm

    I don't like to get caught up in the math and prefer to go by feel when setting up my guitars.

    I don't have any TOM Bridge and Tailpiece guitars that are top wrapped to compare to my Wraparound Bridge guitar, so I can neither confirm nor deny if there is a difference in string stiffness when bending between those two setups.

    I have experimented with top wrapping a Tailpiece with TOM Bridge in the past and had the break angle set shallow like in your photo. I did not like the way the string stiffness felt when bending at the upper frets, so I reverted back to not top wrapping the Tailpiece.

    There is no right or wrong way to set up your own guitar. It's all a matter of personal preference.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
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  10. GrumpyOldDBA

    GrumpyOldDBA Well-Known Member

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    OK I am no engineer but I do have a degree in mathematics. Big disclaimer I am a computer science geek and well I don't really use math anymore much since passing my final classes.

    I believe we need a triple integral here.

    We need to use the standard x-y axis and calculate the heaviness of the strings between the tail peace and bridge as the asymptotic axis approaches groovy. Let's use Iron Butterfly here for an approximation.

    Next using polar coordinates we triangulate between the devils triangle and the garden of Eden. We can sub in the hanging gardens of Babylonia or possibly a sunken german sub outside of Estonia if Eden doesn't work for you.

    Then I believe the final integral should be done via spherical coordinates. Olivia Newton John notes that when getting physical one needs to ignore Blue Oyster cult and go directly past Godzilla to the North Star.

    This is completely obvious to me. Send your triple integral solution to nobody@nowhere.com please ...
     
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  11. Sweetums

    Sweetums Active Member

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    It would be interesting (and probably easy) to actually measure the string bend resistances / tensions of any number of bridges and string gauges.
    I really do wonder if there is a difference (and if so, how much) between the measurements of a nearly 45 degree through-body bridge vs. TOM bridge vs. top-wrapped vs. Epiphone headstock vs. Gibson headstock vs. Fender headstock vs. whatever.

    I certainly have never registered or noticed a difference, but then I had never thought about it before.
     
  12. DrBGood

    DrBGood Well-Known Member

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    I'll go by feel ...
    I knew there was a simple explanation to all this !
     
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  13. Thumpalumpacus

    Thumpalumpacus Well-Known Member

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    That string length stores slack. There's also downward pressure over the nut or saddle to contend with. A lower tailpiece, or steeper headstock angle, will have more string in it, but you will also have more downward pressure on the contact points.

    Both those factors change the feel of the string.
     
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  14. DrBGood

    DrBGood Well-Known Member

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    Right ... you're talking friction aren't you ? I was questionning the weight factor.

    More string because of steeper angle ... come on ... a milimeter or two ? You can feel that ? I lift my hat to you then. I'm really a barbarian.
     
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  15. cerebral gasket

    cerebral gasket Well-Known Member

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    I never really thought weight was a concern either and when I first saw it posted earlier I thought it was odd.

    The friction of the string sliding across the saddle when bending strings is the key factor and how much downforce is applied over the bridge. Whether or not one can feel the difference is no big deal. Everyone will have their own perceptions of things.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
  16. Thumpalumpacus

    Thumpalumpacus Well-Known Member

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    Not saying I can identify it exactly, but it's a factor in string feel. Not casting aspersions on others, either.
     
  17. Biddlin

    Biddlin Well-Known Member

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    Clip one and weigh it, what do I know, but it weighs something and it all counts.
    Yes, 40 percent of college freshman believe the eye sends out waves that are reflected back to make vision work. My sister feels particles shooting through her on sunny days. I try to assume that they are just experiencing an alternate reality. In mine things are distressingly binary.
     
  18. Thumpalumpacus

    Thumpalumpacus Well-Known Member

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    Yet many can somehow detect the difference imparted by 1/1000th of an inch of string-thickness. Weird, isn't it?
     
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  19. DrBGood

    DrBGood Well-Known Member

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    We can feel it's difference in stretching it, more than just touching it without tension. And you wouldn't feel that same 1/1000th of an inch, on a ¼ inch wide cable.
     
  20. donepearce

    donepearce Well-Known Member

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    That actually makes a huge actual difference to string tension. Nothing imaginary about that.
     
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