Intonation of Sixth String

Discussion in 'Vendor Classifieds' started by Zeugitai, Feb 20, 2020.

  1. DrBGood

    DrBGood Well-Known Member

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    Wait ...

    If lowering the action stretched the scale that much, it must have been real high. And can somebody explain to me, how raising the stoptail would make any difference.
     
  2. papagayo

    papagayo Well-Known Member

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    If you flip the bridge likes this you must reverse the saddles left/right and vice'versa, they are notched differently.

    Normally you have something like this :

    Temp 4097.jpg
     
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  3. Zeugitai

    Zeugitai New Member

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    I'll flip the bridge back to 'normal' when the 009-040 string sets arrive. Thanks for the reminder about the slots!
     
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  4. Zeugitai

    Zeugitai New Member

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    It wasn't real high before. Lowering the bridge and raising the tailpiece 'straightens' the overall string and shortens it. The angle over the saddles become less acute, and the short run between the saddles and tailpiece gets shorter. All of this is in small increments, of course. I had never given it any thought until now. As I mentioned, I was surprised, but it did bring the intonated saddles slightly back into the middle of the bridge and away from its back edge. --slightly, but enough to matter.
     
  5. Zeugitai

    Zeugitai New Member

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    Well, here we go again. New strings arrived. In looking for the 'lighter' bass, I couldn't find much, but this set looks like what the doctor ordered for my case. We'll see...
     

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  6. Zeugitai

    Zeugitai New Member

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    Used a Korg TM-40. Flipped the bridge back to 'normal', kept the action about as low as it can be, raised the tailpiece, intonated the saddles a couple times as the new strings settled in. The packaging shows an almost evenly balanced tension across the set, which was an unanticipated but welcome side-effect of making the switch. Thanks to everyone for the kind assistance. Now, back to playing ...
     

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  7. DrBGood

    DrBGood Well-Known Member

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    HUH ? I don't get this ...

    You mean that by slightly raising the tail piece, you went from this

    [​IMG]

    To that ?

    [​IMG]

    I'm sorry, but are we in the twilight zone ?
     
  8. Zeugitai

    Zeugitai New Member

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    I posted all the details as I went from the first photo to the last. I can't tell you any more.
     
  9. John Vasco

    John Vasco Active Member

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    I always tune the thrid and sixth strings a few cents low.

    it produces that 12-string kind of resonance when open chords are played.

    Once you start moving up the neck, they will sound OK.

    This should be a useful read also, explaining tuning of the guitar with it being an 'equal temperament' instrument:
    https://drkevguitar.com/2012/04/04/tuning-data-sheet-45/

    Hope this helps.
     
  10. ezypikins

    ezypikins New Member

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    just lower the bridge a touch. Done and done
     
  11. nasticanasta

    nasticanasta New Member

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    How did Tommy Iommi, Frank Marino, etc ever get by? I think you’re overthinking all this. It’s never going to be perfect...nothing is, so ya get it as close as possible and play.
     
  12. donepearce

    donepearce Well-Known Member

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    Not perfect, but would you really object to making it as good as it can be?
     
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  13. Bubbalou88

    Bubbalou88 Member

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    If you will raise your stopbar tail piece slightly you will find it intonate.
     
  14. DrBGood

    DrBGood Well-Known Member

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    Second time you make that suggestion and still no explanation offered on how raising the stopbar would make intonation different.
     
  15. freesailor

    freesailor New Member

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    I guess if this is the reason why they came out with the long travelling HARMONICA BRIDGE for the SG in the 70s.....
     
  16. donepearce

    donepearce Well-Known Member

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    It's all about cumulative tolerances. They are the length of the neck, position of the fingerboard, depth of the rout and position of the bridge holes. Each of these has a tolerance and depending on which way they go and how they add up, you can clearly run out of bridge travel one way or another - and frequently do.

    This is where they can help themselves by getting the process right. If they leave drilling the bridge holes until the neck is attached, they can reference the position off the nut. End of problem, none of those tolerances matters any more.. The bridge will always be centred.

    What Gibson needs is some expertise in process engineering. Someone who can find out what the issues are from places like this, then work out how to change the build so they can't happen. Relying on people being good at stuff clearly isn't cutting it, and probably never will.
     
  17. SixStrRzr

    SixStrRzr New Member

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    Do you have any neck relief cranked in? A couple of my SGs benefited intonation-wise and playability wise by setting the neck flat, no relief. On one, a Kirk Douglass, I have 9's.
     
  18. Bonzo21

    Bonzo21 Active Member

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    I understand your confusion, the break angle does not affect the intonation whatsoever, given that the intonation has to do with the length of the string relative to the fret placement/nut. Judging by the last picture posted, IF raising the stop bar made an intonation difference it's because the bridge has forward lean now that the tension is reduced (it looks to me like it is leaning forward a bit anyways). That's the only explanation I could come up with (i.e. heightening the stop bar and lower gauge strings might have been enough to stop the bridge from pulling back).

    I'm going to stick my neck out here and say, as a matter of fact, that on a properly functioning guitar moving the stop bar up and down has NO effect on intonation as the angle of the tension behind the bridge does not effect the length of the string between saddle and nut. If it DOES have an effect, something is moving forward or back as result of the change in the direction of the tension on the bridge. If it does have an effect in and of itself, then everything I understand about intonation is wrong. Things that effect intonation: Nut slot contact point, string gauge, neck relief (or twist), bridge saddle placement--I can't think of ANYTHING else that would factor into the equation.

    I am a very diplomatic person, I don't mean to start a debate or controversy. It seems to me like these are facts. When I get home I am going to jack up the stop-bar on my LP to see if intonation changes, because I am def. willing to be proven wrong. I just can't see how this could happen.
     
  19. DrBGood

    DrBGood Well-Known Member

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    Thank you.

    I don't see a one or two degree lean having that much incidence on saddle position anyway. It might move them maybe a millimeter at the most, but nothing to make intonation impossible.

    But I see the OP finding the solution, in properly intonating with fretted notes instead of harmonics, not by playing with the tail piece.
     
  20. Bonzo21

    Bonzo21 Active Member

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    My thought was the say 1mm from the lean and then the forward intonation from the smaller gauge might have done it.

    For sure though, if he wasn't intonating with a fretted note, there was no chance of getting it right to start with....
     
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