Intonation of Sixth String

Discussion in 'Vendor Classifieds' started by Zeugitai, Feb 20, 2020.

  1. axemanv90

    axemanv90 New Member

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    I had trouble intonating and also weird things were happening with tuning. Found out that an inherent problem with Gibson's headstock design causes strings to gouge the nut and stick. There is a significant angle from the nut to the tuners. This is especially true on the middle strings where the angle from the nut to the tuner is greatest. If you do a lot of string bending and stretching, chances are, you have this problem.

    I started desigining a string guide that would allow the strings to come straight out of the nut and then I ran across the String Butler. I got one and it works great--got another one for my other SG-Z. No more tuning and intonation problems from nut gouges.

    https://www.string-butler.com/

    EDIT: After taking a 2nd look, this is probably not the intonation problem
     
  2. DrBGood

    DrBGood Well-Known Member

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  3. Bubbalou88

    Bubbalou88 Member

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    Glad it worked out for you!
     
  4. AMonteiro

    AMonteiro New Member

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    I'm thinking of something you are leaving out: the two parts of the string, the vibrating part and the one between the saddle and the stop bar are not two strait lines. There is a little curve to each side of the "angle". This is more easily noticed on the wounded strings, and especially the E.

    When you raise the stop bar the angle is reduced so, something changes.

    I'm just trying to find the reason that justifies the experiment.
     
  5. PermissionToLand

    PermissionToLand Well-Known Member

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    ... by having guitar techs who handled this stuff. I really have no respect for this notion that rock and roll is supposed to sound like **** and be out of tune because that's somehow cool and part of the deal.

    Well, increasing or decreasing the downward pressure affects string tension. So that naturally also affects how sharp a note goes with the same finger pressure when fretted. That's why, as others mentioned, it's common for bass players to tune a bit flat to compensate.

    Also, he lowered the bridge. Think of a right angle triangle where the right angle is where the body and bridge meet. The side that represents the strings will always be longer than the side that represents the scale length along the body. That's why bridge height will affect intonation; it changes the scale length.
     
  6. brians356

    brians356 New Member

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    Great product idea, I like it. One can spend a lot of time with jeweller's files and Mitchell's cord, shaping and polishing, yet still not get certain string slots satisfactory. I'm going to try this on my '75 SG Standard, which my hardest guitar to keep in tune, even with upgraded tuners.

    BTW, its "harmonica" bridge works great, a luxury to have more than enough intonation adjustment.
     
  7. DrBGood

    DrBGood Well-Known Member

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    You are going to deface a vintage guitar, that kept in tune for 45 years with this gadget ? Keep that money for a luthier that will solve your problem with a way more elegant solution.

    Second, if you never experienced neck dive on your SG, here it comes.
     
  8. donepearce

    donepearce Well-Known Member

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    Break angle doesn't affect string tension. All it affects is the downward force on the bridge. String tension depends on scale length, string mass and required note, and that is it.
     
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  9. Bonzo21

    Bonzo21 Active Member

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    ^ THIS
     
  10. donepearce

    donepearce Well-Known Member

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    Here's a sample calculation for deriving the frequency of a note from scale length, string mass and tension. I used Mathcad for this, but Google will do it as well, even sorting out the various units:

    upload_2020-2-27_14-9-19.png
     
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  11. DrBGood

    DrBGood Well-Known Member

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    I need to print a T-shirt with this on. :rofl:
     
  12. Bonzo21

    Bonzo21 Active Member

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    If break angle changed string tension it would literally change the pitch of the note (it doesn't). Break angle MIGHT affect how much force is needed to press down and bend, but I don't know. I've done the top wrap thing and didn't feel any difference personally (though it did help with string breakage on that particular guitar till I had time to polish a burr on the B string though). In any case, if it does significantly effect how much pressure is needed to "move" the string, then yeah it would cause it to go sharper when fretting. I'm not sure it is the case, but the logic checks out.

    I agree. Neck relief and bridge height relative to the plane of the neck will effect saddle placement.
     
  13. donepearce

    donepearce Well-Known Member

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    Nope, it doesn't affect the force needed to bend either.
     
  14. Bonzo21

    Bonzo21 Active Member

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    I wouldn't know to be honest. At least it's not that crazy an idea...
     
  15. DrBGood

    DrBGood Well-Known Member

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    Only thing a sharp break angle will do is put more pressure on saddles, thus the bridge, which can eventually make it collapse.
     
  16. PermissionToLand

    PermissionToLand Well-Known Member

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    Sure seems to in my experience.
     
  17. Voxman

    Voxman Moderator Staff Member

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    Great subject but once a product is involved I need to locate it to the vendor area. Each guitar is different and as a general rule most, not all, seem to sound tradeoff best tuned as follows:
    E - - 3 cents
    B - -6 cents
    G - - 4 cents
    D - -8 cents
    A - -10 cents
    E - -12 cents

    I'm only able to exact cent measurements on a Conn ST-11 strobe tuner critically calibrated to 100 cents each 1/2 step. the clip on ones test out at one 10th of a cent which cause a slightly beating/ pulsation on octaves. And each of my guitars are different. That said I need to relocate the thread to the vendor section.
     
  18. Slick George

    Slick George New Member

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    I 've been messing around with stop bar height quite a bit lately and found that doing so, I could fine-tune string tension to my liking without changing string gauges. But I always had to check the neck releif on my SG and, of course, intonation had to be readjusted, depending on how much the difference was. Same thing with my Strat, albeit not so dramatic: Tightening the springs slightly increased tension and I had to tighten the truss-rod and readjust the bridges. So I'd say it does make a difference intonation-wise. Just my observations....
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
  19. Bonzo21

    Bonzo21 Active Member

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    But that's the thing, of course the intonation is going to change when the bridge is moving (if it was floating before). Once it is decked it makes no sense that it would affect intonation at all at that point with any successive tightening of the claw...I would, though, increase the resistance to bending up until that point at which it wouldn't move even when you bend. Past that, again, I very much doubt any more change can be felt...
     
  20. Slick George

    Slick George New Member

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