Neck Dive

Discussion in 'Other Guitars' started by Chimperton Dilliams, Feb 21, 2020.

  1. Chimperton Dilliams

    Chimperton Dilliams New Member

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    Well, I don't have an SG but I figured you guys would be pretty experienced in this topic. I've got an ES-339 which I think is on the lighter side at ~7 lbs. It neck dives a little bit which isn't a huge problem for me since I'm used to it, my last guitar did the same, but eliminating it entirely seems to be within reach so I figured I'd try.

    The guitar came with Grover milk bottle tuners which I've read are quite heavy in terms of tuners. Today I pulled off the six buttons (and only the buttons) and with all six buttons removed, the guitar has what I would consider to be perfect balance. Even putting one button back on tips it back into slight neck-heaviness.

    Does anyone know how much each button/screw combo weighs? Could I find a set of buttons that weigh the same as a single Grover button or would replacing them with kluson style tuners entirely be a better bet?

    I think this guitar is absolutely beautiful and it sounds great, I really don't want to get rid of it over neck-heaviness in case somebody was gonna just suggest that instead.
     
  2. donepearce

    donepearce Well-Known Member

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    I too have a 339, (yes it is f*cking gorgeous) and I've never experienced neck dive with it. But you aren't going to find a set of tuners as light as a singe Grover. Just don't let go of the neck.
     
  3. Chimperton Dilliams

    Chimperton Dilliams New Member

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    I mean that I didn't remove the entire tuner, it was still screwed into the headstock. I just removed the knobs from the base of the tuner like so:
    IMG_20200221_113656~2.jpg
    With all of the knobs off (but the base of each tuner still there) the balance is perfect
     
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  4. DrBGood

    DrBGood Well-Known Member

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  5. papagayo

    papagayo Well-Known Member

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  6. donepearce

    donepearce Well-Known Member

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    I thought for a moment that was George Washington's false teeth.
     
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  7. papagayo

    papagayo Well-Known Member

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    George Washington's false teeth buttons, nice imho


    Temp 4095.jpg
     
  8. skelt101

    skelt101 Active Member

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    If you go with the Hipshot buttons, don't torque them down too much. They can split. :shock:
     
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  9. Chimperton Dilliams

    Chimperton Dilliams New Member

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    Looks like I'll try those hipshot tulip buttons, for under 20 bucks I might as well. If that works well enough I'll settle for it.

    I assume going full out on klusons would be even lighter than plastic buttons on the grovers, correct me if I'm wrong
     
  10. Col Mustard

    Col Mustard Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Grover Rotomatic tuners are too heavy for
    SGs and some other guitars. I didn't know an ES guitar
    would suffer from this. Lucky us that we have lots of
    alternatives the the old Rotomatics.

    but it's probably enough simply to replace the
    knobs. There's a lot of metal in the stock knobs.

    I have the Epiphone version of the ES-339, and mine balances perfectly. Mine also weighs about 8 lb. (3.6 kg)

    I removed the epiphone "deluxe" tuners and installed a
    set of Gotoh locking tuners. Locking tuners are usually
    heavier than regular Kluson style, and that's true with mine. But the ES-339 took them in stride and had NO
    neck dive. The Gotoh tuners fit right in the holes with
    no problems.

    So I'd try installing a set of wooden or plastic knobs
    and see. There are lots of different knobs available for
    Grover tuners. If you don't have to drill out your guitar
    that's good.
     
  11. DangerousD

    DangerousD Member

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    A nice LEVYs leather strap solved the issue for me.
     
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  12. Chimperton Dilliams

    Chimperton Dilliams New Member

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    Thanks for the advice, I'll be out of town for a while but when I get back, I'll try some lighter tuning knobs before pulling the trigger on something more drastic
     
  13. yellowblues

    yellowblues New Member

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    Hello, this is my first post and I hope I can help you.

    Don't replace your tuners! The problem is the strap.

    I have an SG and it necks dives a lot OR stays completely stable and does not deck dive at all (from 0 to 100!) depending on the strap.

    You need a strap that offers some friction. Go to a few shops and look for a strap that offers the best friction on the inside. Different (and surprising) materials work or not. For instance Levy's poly strap is the worst, but even fender monogram is ok, some padded ones although supposed to be comfortable give a lot of neck dive because they are slippery.

    yellow
     
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  14. donepearce

    donepearce Well-Known Member

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    Friction is good, but this problem is clearly very marginal or new tuner knobs would not be any kind of a solution. So the best way to fix this without modding the guitar is to fix something heavy to the strap close to the rear button. A chunk of brass would be effective and decorative, but anything would do.
     
  15. ezypikins

    ezypikins New Member

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    Worst guitar I ever felt this on was a 60's Moserite. My '61 RI has a bit of weight, can tug a bit. I use a 3" wide strap always. this helps. The Angus Young sig, doesn't seem to have the problem. But it has 3/4 the wood on the neck. I'm mainly a Les Paul player. If I gigged an SG regularly I might move the strap button.
     
  16. yellowblues

    yellowblues New Member

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    A 3" wide strap not necessarily is the best against neck dive... some straps are padded, comfortable and slippery...
     
  17. Canadian Caballero

    Canadian Caballero New Member

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    This is what I did for my SG. I built a strap that moves the bottom suspension point more "inboard." The key component is the strap that fits between the strap buttons, which your main strap is woven through. I use strap locks, so it all comes off together. image000000_01.jpg image000000.jpg
     
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  18. donepearce

    donepearce Well-Known Member

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    That is a smart fix - I like it. Archimedes would be proud
     
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  19. Chimperton Dilliams

    Chimperton Dilliams New Member

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    Well, a good strap (which I have, Levy's suede) doesn't fix the problem. I can still feel it wanting to dive. The strap just moves the problem from your arm to your back. It's uncomfortable to play for extended periods of time. When I took the buttons off as pictured before, it felt a lot better; no more unnecessary force on my back. I had thought about hanging something from my strap or w/e but I couldn't really find anything suitable immediately. If anyone's got some suggestions on that, I'm all ears
     
  20. jk67SG

    jk67SG New Member

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    3 lb counterweight strap button.
     
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