string height, amp, overdrive, pickups ???

Discussion in 'Lessons & Techniques' started by acdc54_caddy62, Feb 21, 2006.

  1. acdc54_caddy62

    acdc54_caddy62 Member

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    On the intro of Highway To Hell from Live at Donnington Angus just taps the 2nd fret over and over 2-0-2-0-2-0 Ive tried doing that myself and it hasn't worked out that god is it his string height or is his amp in overdrive or is his pickups hotter then mine or what???

    Thanks for looking, Peace 8) :)
     
  2. barbas23

    barbas23 Active Member

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    i'd say fingers

    it seems his amp is not that overdriven ;)
     
  3. If You Want Blood

    If You Want Blood Active Member

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    im currently making a video for you. i just have to upload it :)
     
  4. muzak

    muzak Member

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    [quote author=barbas23 link=topic=6923.msg87484#msg87484 date=1140546717]
    i'd say fingers

    it seems his amp is not that overdriven  ;)
    [/quote]

    i believe he used a smaller wattage tube amp so he could crank it really loud and get that crunch. i'm not too big on ACDC, but that's how you get that crunch without alot of overdrive. unfortunately my amp is to powerful to get above 3, fender bassman, and that almost over powers the drums.
     
  5. If You Want Blood

    If You Want Blood Active Member

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    i believe this is what you are inquiring to.
    http://media.putfile.com/hammer5538
    i havent seen that donnington video in a while but angus does this alot.
    what he does is he picks it once and then hammers on and then pulls off.
     
  6. Zeppelin Rules

    Zeppelin Rules Active Member

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    BTW its also known as a trill.
     
  7. 1Way

    1Way Active Member

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    Coooooool stuff guys! And what an excellent video clip Blood!!! Very cool! That technique is used in many lead parts. Reminds me of the trouble I had (still sorta have) with Barracuda (from Heart), doing a quick but similar fill/lick. So my advice to 54_62 is also for me. ;)

    acdc54_caddy62, in addition, if your finger strength, speed and stamina are not well developed yet, such maneuvers will be much harder to do. But don’t give up. I would suggest doing some finger stretching and strengthening exercises that also helps you get used to the blues scale patterns. I have what I consider to be a real good graphic of the blues scale with it’s 5 common patterns or positions highlighted in different colors to make learning the scale easier. I’ll go find the link...

    Sometimes my fingers cramp up if I play certain AC/DC songs because they are so intense on the rhythm parts for example. There is no short cut to strengthening your fingers. I suggest that you do some sort of scale run up and down the neck as a routine. You’ll build up muscle strength, improve (fretting) clarity, and learn the blues scale positions better. I like multitasking. ;)
     
  8. 1Way

    1Way Active Member

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    Unfortunately, I can’t yet find the jpg files which would preserve a bit more clarity and printing options, but you can click on the links below and then
    either
    - go up to file, then page setup, then change the paper orientation from portrait to landscape to make it fit on your printout better, then hit ok
    - then right click the graphic, and print it

    or
    - right click the graphic, and save it to your PC and open it up in whatever program you prefer and print from there.

    I mostly just use this one. I suggest to start with the first position, then learn 3 and 5 next. After you learn those three pretty good, the other 2 are much easier to learn, because, they are already there fitting perfectly between the other three!
    CLICK HERE FOR THE 5 POSITIONS

    This one might be helpful to show how the 5 positions repeat on up the neck.
    CLICK HERE FOR THE ENTIRE FRETBOARD
    You can print out some small one’s too and stick em in your wallet. When your bored and without a guitar handy, practice running your scales air guitar. If you get stuck, you can always check your wallet sized blues scale graphic.
     
  9. If You Want Blood

    If You Want Blood Active Member

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    [quote author=Zeppelin Rules link=topic=6923.msg87506#msg87506 date=1140555949]
    BTW its also known as a trill.
    [/quote]

    ok mr specific ;) ;D
     
  10. muzak

    muzak Member

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    1Way,

       I'm really starting to learn the entire fretboard, myself. i've been studying under this guitar method author who lives down the street from me. he has taught me a whole world of things i would have never been able to learn myself. i thought i was the "crap" going in there, and all i was going to do was learn a few more scales and improve my playing a little. turns out i didnt know much and everything i was palying while i was improving w/ buddies whathaveyou, really was minimal. that's actually some really good material to learn. i would recomend learning that in the major scale myself, but it is going to be easier in the blues battern because it omits a few notes. and the key of G, is the best one to start with, like the link you posted. once you have that down, and an understanding of when to change modes within that scale than your playing will elevate into worlds unknown and your improving can be infinite. it takes a while though to get your brain to work that way, once you learn when to change modes (or positions as that jpg he posted puts it), but it can really take you down new avenues.

    -brandon
     
  11. barbas23

    barbas23 Active Member

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    well thank guys, really useful ;)
     
  12. 1Way

    1Way Active Member

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    Muzak
    Wow, you have a Guitar Method author, as your guitar teacher! That is awesome! Where I come from, poorsville ;) , they don’t make teachers for us! Just kidding. I agree that having a good teacher is awesome. I started playing when I was very young. Played violin in elementary school, then acoustic guitar for a year. But when I wanted to graduate from that to electric, I had to get a job and buy my own. (Parents are smart that way sometimes). I played electric for a few years which represented about one year or so of learning new stuff. But since those days (about 25-30 years ago), I haven’t learned any new stuff, maybe one song’s worth. But I could NEVER stop playing guitar altogether.

    Since 2005, I’ve been on a slow but steady incline towards improvement. First step was to buy a great guitar and amp. Next step, which I hoped to avoid, was to improve things like fixing up the amp which added a lot of expense, but the end result is worth it. And buying a pair of Celestion greenback clones from Scumbag amps, manufactured by Weber, a great speaker maker. So now that I have the equipment, the pressure is on me to upgrade ;) my playing skills. :lol:

    I was just itching to share that graphic because for me, it helps to see each pattern shape highlighted separately, and by having two different necks showing, you can visualize each mode/position/pattern in relation to everything else. To be honest, I have not even learned the complete blues scale yet. First and second are solid, but the rest I really need to work on.
     
  13. muzak

    muzak Member

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    good, you have alot of stuff ahead of you than. we'll be learning till the day we die. i'm not sure you ever completely satisfy yourself in you playing. what kind of amp did you get?
     
  14. 1Way

    1Way Active Member

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    I hear that. I have a very pleasingly raunchy all tube single channel (2 inputs high/low sensitivity) 50watt Marshall JCM800 single 12 combo, but now it’s pushing 2-Scumback speakers (M75 & M55, 55 gets huge bass) and has a BOSS DS-1 up front for boosts. Right now it could use a new set of power tubes, but it’s just awesome for doing the classic palm muted “chuga chuga” rhythm grind! Lead is cool, but I like more overdrive distortion, so the pedal comes in handy for that too, especially at lower volume.

    I before I had my SG Standard, I used to play a Gibson Explorer 425. I needed to make that exchange as the Explorer was way to heavy for me and my aging back, I have some curvature of the spine and some arthritis too, but I still get around ok, just have to watch my activities. So when I get real loud and clean up the preamp just right, I can get a fairly decent AC/DC vibe going. Changing out my stock speaker in my amp was a very pleasing experience, even though it cost a lot of dough, I am much happier with the new sound I get.
     
  15. muzak

    muzak Member

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    i have curvature of the spine which has caused arthritis in my spine too. had it for 3 years now, and i'm only 23 now. sounds like a nice amp. i use a '68 bassman w/ two 15" speakers. that darn thing gets way too loud. when playing with my band i can't even turn it up past 3 on the knob. at that level the tube sound hasnt even kicked in. i wish there was a way to get the wattage lower. i unplugged one speaker and that seems to help a little...well i blew the speaker. that is the best amp i've ever had as far as sound, but there's just no reverb or gain. i rarely use the gain on amps anyways, i love my Big Muff and Zvex Fuzz Factory too much...but i need some reverb! I'm thinking of getting a Electro Harmonix Holy Grail so i can have some reverb.

    so you recomend those speakers? i'm about to be in the market for some. i have found factory replacements for my Bassman, to keep that vintage amp sound, but 40 year old speakers are going to be fragile and blow like the one already did.
     
  16. 1Way

    1Way Active Member

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    Muzak
    Way cool rig stuff you got there, sounds like great fun. Ya, your low end with the clean Fender and the 15’s have got to be bodacious and punchy. But like you say, lower volume would be kinda hard to manage. I have been big time into researching cranked amp sound at lower volume, so I may have some tips to help tame that lovely beast of yours. :lol: Off the top of my head, there’s power attenuation, power scaling, cascading amps and acoustic attenuation. Each type has it’s own set of ups and downs. I would be happy to discuss this, especially power scaling as that technology seems quite good, yet not in large use (yet).

    By your description, I would tend to think that Weber is a great place for you to go for speakers. I love my Scumbacks, but they are a bit specialized, if you will. They evidently do a wonderful job of cloning a vintage, that is an old old Celestion greenback, which really became famous for it’s (new) sound back in the 60’s and early 70’s in it’s hay day, as well as for aged one’s too. The greenbacks are in my understanding either the number one or number two best match for the classic Marshall grind and growl early rock is noted for. The scumbacks are not really chimey, in fact, the top end is a bit lacking, but for my relatively speaking high range guitar and amp rig, this works out great for me. I will end up putting them in a closed back cab to help keep the speakers more tight. I hear that if I get to loud with them, they can be too loose and end up flubbing out. Again, so far I’m for lower volume so this is no problem for me.

    Greenbacks mostly came in 20 and 25watt versions, although I have heard they may have made some other wattages, not sure. These low wattage speakers were designed from the beginning to meet the demands of professional musicians who were commonly sporting a 4-12 “half stack”, or double that up for a “full stack”, which is great for 50 and 100watt tube amps. Greenbacks have a relatively early break up point (when they start producing their own distortion effect). They lend themselves quite well to a distorted or overdriven sound with an upper midrange emphasis.

    Celestion also made higher wattage speakers which I gather are like the greenbacks, but they would tend to do things a bit tighter (opposite of muddy or flabby). In recent times, there are trends toward a tighter sound, so that’s in favor of the higher watt speakers. Oh ya, had to go refresh my memory, the greenbacks are Celestion G12M75, G12M55 in 20watt and more commonly, 25watt versions (75&55hz=std&bass resonance frequency range). And there’s the G12H30, 30 watts. So you have the G12M and G12H, Medium and Heavy magnets, there may be some other similar models too.

    Oh, I want to add something right here, if you get the chance to use more than one differently rated speakers, in terms of it’s sonic frequency range, I enthusiastically say “go for it”! My sense is that each speaker produces slightly different tonal emphasis so as to minimize “flat spots” in your tone. I’m just huge for pinched harmonics so that is an area that you really want to promote the best out of your speakers, you get more brilliance or musical dynamics going on rather than just using one speaker voicing.

    Weber makes excellent speakers and for great prices and if anything, their specialty seems somewhat toward the Fender sound, so I was pleased to fine Scumbacks doing a great job for the Marshal grind flavor. If you go to Weber’s website, CLICK HERE FOR WEBER, they have a forum that might be able to answer some specific questions about their speaker line. Hard to say what to recommend because speakers and tone and all is such a personal taste thing. Certainly there are other makers and so I’m just sharing what I learned so far. If you call them, they are very helpful and professional.

    Many at the 18watt forum, a group of exceptionally seasoned vets in amp building and playing seem to have developed a rather strong following for Weber’s. I’m more of a quieter player, and need help (like you too) to keep things quieter while wishing we could crank it up so as to get those power tubes nice and hot, contributing a tight overdrive that revs up to speed like nothing else. Chuckles, long post, sorry. I’ll have to make another one for the quieting stuff. ;)
     
  17. muzak

    muzak Member

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    wow, thanks. i will look into that, definitely. and, it's not even so much that i want to play quieter, because we play fairly loud....you know how we young chaps are ;)...loud and noisy. but, i can only roll the volume between 2 and 3. as far as using this amp for practicing, completely out of the question. you have to slowly dial it in between 0 and 1. the guy i bought it from was gettin rid of it because it was too powerful for him, and i thought if it's too powerful for an old man, it's probably still not going to be powerfull enough for me. i was wrong. it sounds like a dream otherwise, and bassmans seem to be all the rage right now. right after i got mine i have noticed a huge price jump in them. i got lucky on mine.

    i just want that almost distorted sound when it's clean. you know what i mean. so am i able to use smaller speakers as long as the ohms match up? i'm not too savvy when it comes to amps and wattage.
     
  18. 1Way

    1Way Active Member

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    Muzak
    You said
    Right, I think I follow you. Most say that tube amps sound better when you crank em up and get the power tubes contributing for some awesome overdrive, but usually by the time you get that effect where you like it, the volume is just way too loud. Your not alone! :)

    As for the speakers matching up to your amp. First make sure you have enough wattage rating by adding up all your speakers. Like 2x50watt, or 4x25watt speakers can handle 100watts. That is the first consideration when it comes to power issues. But most tube amps are a bit more capable than the stock rating implies. A good general rule is to always use somewhat higher wattage rating in your speakers than your amp so it would be harder to blow em up! Tube amps are generally louder than solid state because their power to the speakers tends to fluctuate more so via the nature of tubes and such, so some wattage cushion is well advised. Also, cleaner settings tend to be somewhat more powerful as they deliver the larger bassier tones without much alteration via distortion, so your speakers tend to push in and out more for a clean low end sound and that is probably the way you blew your speaker, it simply physically was pushed in and out too far. You have a great rig, I’m confident you will find the right speaker setup.

    After that, you probably want to consider the sonic character that different speaker models have to offer. I simply don’t have much experience with different sorts of speakers, and this area is heavily subject to personal preference, so shop and learn as much as you can before you buy. Working musicians can be a great resource.

    Then after that, you need to order the right impedance which is a model dependent option. Most tube amps have ohm options usually between 4, 8 or 16ohms. Your speaker’s ohm rating need to take into account how many speakers you intend to use from your amp. The way the speakers work concerning ohms is either additive or subtractive depending upon whether or not they are hooked up in series or parallel. And a 4-12 can be hooked up in series-parallel, so there are options. Celestion and other sites have guidelines for this issue, and any reputable speaker dealer can help you with getting it right.
     
  19. muzak

    muzak Member

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    thanks!
     
  20. 1Way

    1Way Active Member

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    post 1of2
    Muzak
    Here’s some power and volume considerations. Power attenuation, power scaling, cascading amps and acoustic attenuation. Each one has it’s own strengths and weaknesses, and personal taste and expectations certainly apply.

    Power attenuators are perhaps the most popularized method to get cranked amp sound at quieter volume. They act like a resistor or load after your amp and before the speakers so as to reduce overall volume. The drawbacks are that in practice, especially as you increase the attenuation (makes it quieter), it tends to diminish the tone, sounds more flat, so most successful models incorporate various tone adjustments to sound better when used harder.

    They are fully portable and pretty easy to setup. Especially if you use such a device too rigorously, you can shorten the life of your equipment like the power tubes and power trany (or is it the output transformer?). However, most attenuator makers say that your power tubes will last just as long as it would if you cranked it that loud without the attenuator. If you go this rout, make sure your impedance is correctly matched, not just by simply checking the rating on the label, but by putting a meter to the device. Some amp manufacturers, perhaps many void the warranty if you use a power attenuator. Pros and working musicians use em, I figure something’s good about em!

    Power scaling is a mod to your amp which steps in between the last transformer before the speakers. It downsizes the power that will end up going to the last transformer and thus to the speakers as well. This is done with a sophisticated circuit that can also scale the preamp as well. London Power is the maker of this device, and is similar but different from Maven Peal who uses a sag circuit, but does not sell a kit. There are home brew versions of this basic concept (smile), that I hear works very well in 18watt amps for example, although in larger wattage amps, heat dissipation can become a problem.

    So this mod may require rather sizable cooling fins and or active ventilation making it a fairly invasive mod, so it’s target audience is not focused on vintage (original spec) amps, but working/practicing amps. This approach, according to my non-expert opinion, seems to offer the best single solution in terms of getting good sound at even very low volume. You can crank your amp to around insanely loud volume, 3/4 or more, and the volume can be around TV volume! My amp opens up really well after 4 or 5, so you may not even need to press matters that far. Downside is it’s invasive and permanent to one amp (but reversible and optionally disconnected).
     

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