The Norlin Era SG Custom and SG Standard.

Discussion in 'Gibson SG' started by SG Champagne, Aug 17, 2016.

  1. SG Champagne

    SG Champagne Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2010
    Messages:
    144
    Likes Received:
    88
    Location:
    West Louisiana
    Yes, many complaints against the Norlin Standard and Custom SGs in particular are complaints against the design improvements. Neck and Headstock joint with neck both improved by three piece neck and volute, is a good example. The Schaller bridge offered more durability, stability and intonation range. People hated it because it looks different! LOOKS different! Forget whether it's a better functioning device, people despised it because it LOOKS different. :rofl:
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2016
    Thumpalumpacus, koaguilds and Raiyn like this.
  2. Norlin SG

    Norlin SG Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2012
    Messages:
    631
    Likes Received:
    414
    OK,OK, OK. My 78 LH standard came with one fret set lower than the rest. After I got it I had Mike level and crown. The frets. What I got back was some very low frets, kind of a fretless wonder if you will.

    Played it this way for many years with no complaints. The last level and crown, maybe 10 to 15 years ago, there was not enough material left so I had Mike refret it. Since Mike removed the one factory defect with a re-fret it's good for another 30 to 40 years with nothing more than an occasional level and crown and proper set ups.

    The Tarbacks, Volute and Harmonica bridge are pluses as far as I'm concerned. Fit and finish? No issues.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2016
    SG Champagne likes this.
  3. Raiyn

    Raiyn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2016
    Messages:
    4,946
    Likes Received:
    2,788
    Location:
    St. Pete FL
    That's corksniffers for ya. It's part of the reason I'm digging the HP line from Gibby they actually have a route for innovation that the 'sniffers wouldn't allow on the main line.
     
    Relic61 likes this.
  4. SG standard

    SG standard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2014
    Messages:
    1,502
    Likes Received:
    1,949
    I'm with you 100% on that one. It's just a shame they seem to have stalled in 2017 with changes that are cosmetic or just 'for the sake of being different', like the return to '57 pups & angel wing pick guard. Not that there's anything wrong with either of those, just that they're 'this years model' changes. I'd have like to see improvements to the bridge design, and at least the inclusion of coil taps with all humbuckers. Nonetheless, I think the HP models are Gibson's finest right now.
     
    SG Champagne likes this.
  5. SG Champagne

    SG Champagne Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2010
    Messages:
    144
    Likes Received:
    88
    Location:
    West Louisiana
    I've never heard of the HPs so I googoled. HP means High Performance, I assume. You are correct. I looked at the price for a new HP SG Standard. That is a good price for a fine Gibson piece. I don't like those tuners, though. Those electronics are not going to work for 30 years and neither will those tuners. I don't know about the bridge either. If both tuners and bridge prove to be as functional and durable than the Grover tuners and Schaller bridge that came with Norlins then the HP models are a Grand Slam.

    Shifting gear a bit: folks, check out the vintage SGs on-line. The ones from the 1960s were not equipped with Grover tuners. Check out how very many of them have had their tuners changed out for new tuners. AND check out how often the replacement involves Kluson classics being replaced with Grovers. That's why Agent 99 needed new tuners and a new bridge. The Gibson Repair and Restoration folks informed me that the tuners and bridge are failing. The original 1961 designs and construction of the tuners and bridge are not optimal. Improved tuners and bridges were installed in the Norlins.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2016
  6. Gibsg

    Gibsg Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2012
    Messages:
    2,140
    Likes Received:
    1,252
    An other difference , body/neck angle is near 0° on a Norlin Gibson SGs, right?


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2016
  7. Raiyn

    Raiyn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2016
    Messages:
    4,946
    Likes Received:
    2,788
    Location:
    St. Pete FL
    Considering it has a different neck joint than the T line, I'm not worried about the cosmetics. The changes from T to HP are more than skin deep. I'd like to see the dip switch wiring that the LP Standard HP came with last year.
    • New High Performance DIP Switch Control Assembly featuring:
    • Push-Pull switches for Coil splits, phase switch, and Inner/Outer Coil Selection
    • As well as internal DIP switch for Coil split/tap options, Volume control High pass filter (Treble Bleed) and Transient suppression limiter for digital recording.
    So it's not like it couldn't be done.
    All you do is take off the G-Force with the battery out, put it in a hermetically sealed box, and put a set of Hipshot lockers on using the UMP plates so no new holes need to drilled and walk away.

    I'd love some innovation in the bridge, but baby steps.
     
    Relic61 likes this.
  8. Super fuzz

    Super fuzz Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2016
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    38
    Yea the tuners are an easy change and an easy change to undo if the need arises later, but I seriously doubt the robo tuners will every really be in demand.
     
  9. Raiyn

    Raiyn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2016
    Messages:
    4,946
    Likes Received:
    2,788
    Location:
    St. Pete FL
    There are plenty of people who actually like them, and who knows what future corksniffers will want.

    In 2056 some dork born tomorrow may well flip their ish over an original G-Force unit. Granted they may well need to bodge a power cell as I doubt the battery would work then.......
     
  10. Super fuzz

    Super fuzz Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2016
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    38
    True. Are there other musical instruments that tune themselves? I'm not that knowledgeable about other musical instruments.
     
  11. Relic61

    Relic61 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2012
    Messages:
    3,741
    Likes Received:
    2,768
    Location:
    Catskill Mountains
    That G-Force is a forced idea that adds around $200 to the price of an HP! Dare I say, Most experienced players that are in want or need of an HP level guitar don't want or need the gimmickry of a self tuning guitar. And I will go on record as saying the E-Tune on my 2014 was not good enough to use professionally in front of a live audience. (too slow & went nutz once in a while) At this point in life I'm still smarter & faster than a machine & better at solving any tuning issues faster & more accurately where that E-Tune just wasn't.

    Even in cases where someone wants to go from E Standard (A440) to an E flat or D natural tuning during a live performance, the guitar just undergoes too much stress relief & it doesn't relax all at once upon detuning the strings so we end up having a delayed affect of pitch stability after the E-Tune says it is all done. A minute or two later after doing this you will be out of tune again so, win loose or draw, this E-Tune / G-Farce is a gimmick that is being farced, oops. forced on players demanding the HP line of instruments.

    Bottom line is if we are going to use alternate tuned guitars we are just better off having a guitar set up & stabilized at that pitch & string tension. How much longer before Henry J figures out we just don't need or want his electronic tuners shoved up our a$$e$? I think the unsold guitars from '14 & '15 spoke volumes & this is partly why they are only on the HP line now but even still, this really just needs to go away & not be mandatory & added into the purchase price.

    Anf while I'm at it, real musician running Gibson making smart instrument related decisions instead of a greed motivated egotist would be frik'n awesome & wonderful too, but who's holding their breath for that?

    Sorry, the thread was about Norlins. I love my two SG's & 3 Les Pauls from this era. I'm happy to buy more too so where the cork sniff'n $#it talkers keeping their prices low & affordable. We can't pump them up too much ya know. Their prices will go up like the rest of them!
     
    syscokid and SG Champagne like this.
  12. SG Champagne

    SG Champagne Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2010
    Messages:
    144
    Likes Received:
    88
    Location:
    West Louisiana
    I do not see a new Gibson guitar purchase anywhere in my future. I own only two Gibsons and both were purchased Used.
     
    Raiyn and Relic61 like this.
  13. Raiyn

    Raiyn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2016
    Messages:
    4,946
    Likes Received:
    2,788
    Location:
    St. Pete FL
    Best way to get 'em
     
    Thumpalumpacus likes this.
  14. Relic61

    Relic61 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2012
    Messages:
    3,741
    Likes Received:
    2,768
    Location:
    Catskill Mountains
    I agree, yet I would love to better support my favorite guitar manufacturer. Especially so for keeping American workers employed & not bailing out to cheepo-town!

    I am just frustrated with what has been going on with the Nibs or G-Farce mentality on several models that I really wanted to buy. That is the sad cold reality of it for me.
     
  15. Raiyn

    Raiyn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2016
    Messages:
    4,946
    Likes Received:
    2,788
    Location:
    St. Pete FL
    Yup.
     
  16. SG standard

    SG standard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2014
    Messages:
    1,502
    Likes Received:
    1,949
    I read this yesterday & it set me thinking. Over the years I never seem to have 'bonded' with any of the guitars I've bought used:
    The only guitar (or possibly two) I ever regretted selling was a new purchace.
    The only guitars that turned into keepers were bought new (though I did keep a used Strat for almost 30 years, it was mostly because I didn't get around to selling it until after I'd bought an SG).
    A good friend of mine loves buying obscure 80s guitars - which aren't too pricey - but I find I'm never very excited about the idea of buying a well-used guitar. Yet one of my favourite guitars is a well-worn '78 Guild (which I bought new...), so it's not that I don't like worn guitars.

    Having thought about it - I still don't really understand it... but I just don't seem to have ever bonded with used guitars I've bought, in fact, the only 'pre-owned' guitar I currently have I've just sold on E-bay (at a profit).

    Now there are two arguments I often hear for buying used:

    1) "Let someone else wear it in for you" - I can't argue with that. Except to say I quite like 'wearing in' a guitar... :)
    2) "Let someone else pay the depreciation for you" - This I can argue with, perhaps surprisingly, so I'll share my recent experience of new purchases, (it surprised me when I thought about this):

    '14 SG Standard - bought as a keeper, and yes, if I were to sell it, I'd expect to take the full hit of depreciation from new.
    '14 PRS SE - sold in '16 for exactly what I paid
    '15 Hagstrom Viking - I've already declined two offers of £50 more than I paid, but I may well take the next one, just to move it along.
    '15 Fender Strat - realised I wanted something slightly different, and sold for a profit of £25 after a month
    '15 Fender Strat (MiM Standard) - bought in a sale, I ended up paying slightly below the price good examples were fetching on Ebay. But it's a keeper!
    '16 Gibson Midtown Standard - bought at exactly half retail price. I suspect it should be possible to sell without loss in a few years, although I know the Midtown is not 'in demand'. But it's probably going to be with me a long time...
    '16 American Deluxe Plus Strat - bought at more than 1/3 off retail. Not likely to be an 'in demand' model, this would probably be a loss if sold in a few years, however, the depreciation is not likely to be significant due to the initial discount (and it's a keeper).
    '16 SG Standard HP - Modest discount, but bought with the expectation that the '17 HP range would be a lot more money in the UK. In fact, this was £949 & the '17s are £1499 - so again the long-term depreciation may not be that steep, and it was bought to keep.

    The above is not an attempt to sound clever - just to show that buying new doesn't always involve an immediate loss, but can - perhaps bizarrely - involve a profit. And I stress all were bought because they were exactly what I was looking for at the time, (even down to the colour) - not just because they were cheap or to turn a profit. Obviously, if you grab a 6 month old guitar you can be sure to avoid the initial depreciation too - but recently bargains like that seem to be harder to find than dealer bargains on new instruments. ;)

    During this time I bought two used Gibsons: First, the Diablo, bought from someone who had picked it up new in a clearance sale, and he made a profit selling it to me. I've now sold for a further profit. I'd estimate that guitar has gained £400ish in value over 4 years. Not bad from new! The second SG was soon returned to the dealer, as the guy had tried to rip me off!

    I can empathise with you, as I'll never buy another 'nibbed' Gibson; it's the main reason I've sold the Diablo, however, I'm lucky enough to like the Tronical tuners enough to be considering putting them on one of my Strats.

    But to be fair to Gibson, they have now got two ranges to try to cater for all tastes. It's just unfortunate that your tastes aren't aligned with either. And I don't think there's any chance of a third 'R' range. :)
     
  17. Relic61

    Relic61 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2012
    Messages:
    3,741
    Likes Received:
    2,768
    Location:
    Catskill Mountains
    That's why I hope they come to their senses & drop the "Mandatory" auto-tuner foolishness on the HP line sooner rather than later. I'm sure Henry J is in love with the whole idea & is resistant to listening to those not so in love it as well as seeing it reflected in the lack of sales. Actually, pairing the auto-tuners & fret over binding hides the fact concerning the non-nib's binding technique & it's real importance to so many players as the overall sales are obscured by the resistance to the auto-tuners!!!
    This is one reason why I'm vocal & exact about my issues. Like Biddlin insists, my complaining here probably does no good but neither has writing to Gibson with my complaints. Hell, they didn't even bother to send me a form letter or acknowledgement in return. fvkr'z

    And as you may or may not know, I have personally experienced the shortcomings of the E-tune system on my 2014 SG Standard as in; it's ability to consistently tune quickly in between songs in front of an audience just isn't there! and... I even had several weird E-Tune episodes were the machine just couldn't tune a string accurately & eventually went into what I call 'unwind & rewind mode' several times! which left me so fvk'n pissed off & embarrassed that I almost broke the guitar as I put it away & grabbed my backup! To me, that is useless gimmicky $#!T that simply DOES NOT belong on a 'Professional' HP guitar!

    Sure some may say "the auto-tune works fine for me" but stand in front of a live audience with fellow band members looking at you waiting for you to say your guitar is now in tune & ready to play while your auto-tuner 'does its thing' & I think most will have an entirely different opinion on the auto-tune guitars for live performances!
    And again I ask, why attach them to the HP models that most professional / semi-professional players are going to demand & not on other models that newer players that may more often struggle with tuning could benefit from?..., That answer probably is only looked at in terms of money! As in, the people most likely to afford the cost of the auto-tuners are going to be the people looking at the more expensive models anyway as compared to the lower priced bargain guitar players.

    As you can see, my personal experience with my auto-tune Gibson has left me sore & chaffed! And afraid to go near the damn stove!

    Now, I want my binky...
     
    Thumpalumpacus likes this.
  18. SG standard

    SG standard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2014
    Messages:
    1,502
    Likes Received:
    1,949
    Yes, I know. But do you know the HP's don't have E-tune? They have a completely updated Tronical tuner, Gibson have called 'G-Farce' - Oh, wait, you do know that... :D
    Well, G-Force is dramatically better in it's performance; but you'll still hate it & expect it to spew strings off you're guitar mid-gig... So I guess it makes no odds.

    I'd be happy, very happy, to gig with G-Force on my SG. Evidently plenty of other people feel the same way - Tronical sell a wide range of tuners to fit many different guitars, I'm sure they'd not have bothered to expand beyond Gibson models if no one was buying them. Somehow I doubt the G-Force tuners are impacting the HP range any more than any of the other 'non-traditional' features, including the absence of nibs. Most guitarists want their instruments to be just like the ones made in the 50s or 60s. Those that are willing to embrace new features are probably, mostly, willing to try the G-Force tuners too.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2016
    PermissionToLand likes this.
  19. Relic61

    Relic61 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2012
    Messages:
    3,741
    Likes Received:
    2,768
    Location:
    Catskill Mountains

    Supposedly, & according to Tony Bacon, the parralell neck / body angle was only invovled with the 71 design change & the Special, Standard & Custom switched back in the '73 return to more traditional fare.

    While a neck angle of 2º is rather hard to see with the naked eye, it very well may be that some cheaper models that came out in 72/73 like the SG I, II & III may have kept the straight neck angle. Tough to find that kind of info... so.

    I can't say with 100% certainty as the precise subject on guitars outside the Special, Standard & Custom are not addressed in specifics but mainly addressed in a generalized manner in Tony Bacons book 'The SG' by saying "by '73 the line has settled down to a new look Special, Standard & Custom, dropping the parallel neck construction & the semi-circular control plate, and returning the bevels in the cutaways."
     
  20. Relic61

    Relic61 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2012
    Messages:
    3,741
    Likes Received:
    2,768
    Location:
    Catskill Mountains
    In the 50's & 60's the frets (fat & low) were very different than today's 'T' line so that whole 'looking for Traditional features' that some a-spew (not you of course) just doesn't apply to really old & classic Gibson construction but more to the thicker binding / higher thinner fret construction of the 90's & 2000's! Which is hardly something to aspire to or base 'Traditional' construction techniques on.

    And is the G-Farce really better than the E-Tune at tuning quickly??? Or is it just different in features, repackaged & re-promoted? Seriously, how do we really know? Should I 'chance it' again on a new '17 HP & risk embarrassing myself in front of live audiences? (that's actually hard to do at this point but you get my drift) I remember Gibson saying the E-Tune was an improvement! But it just wasn't good enough for me. The stove still looks hot to me bro..

    No matter how you slice it, mandatory auto-tuners & their additional cost added to a new guitar isn't what a majority of players wants. Who likes to be 'Force' fed?
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice