The Truth About Marshall Stacks (there, I said it)

Discussion in 'Amps & Cabs' started by Kevy Nova, Mar 12, 2012.

  1. DoodoaXD

    DoodoaXD Well-Known Member

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    The noise was muddy, very muddy and bassy. I don't know if this is important, but I was using a basic wireless mic, the one someone would use for talking/singing. And yes, I was far away from the speakers, where the audience would be. The mic and myself were kind of far away from the stage, but not that far.

    This is all very confusing I don't know why, but at least I have background on this. Thanks.
     
  2. donepearce

    donepearce Well-Known Member

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    If you mike an amp with a cardioid, the sound will be muddy and bassy. You need to roll the bass right off in eq to restore the PA sound to that coming from the guitar speaker. Bass boost when up close is a fact of life for all mikes except omnis.

    In fact there is enough volume coming from even a small guitar amp that you can use an omni mike and enjoy much better sound.

    Then there is the factor of placement. Position the mic near the edge of the cone, and you will lose all of the top - mud again. Centre it up and point it straight in, and you get the treble. If you need to back the treble off a little, do it with the mic's eq. You get the benefit of being able to turn the mike gain up further without feedback.
     
  3. dbb

    dbb Well-Known Member

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    What Don said....plus a lot of mics have a bass roll-off, so if you get the mic too close it will boomy, back the mic off and you get less low end.
     
  4. purple dragon

    purple dragon New Member

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    i want to ask most of you that say that you play with small amps wath are you guys playing?country blues? some one playing hard rock/metal with small amps?
    do you guys think i can use 2 15w tube amps in stereo with a hard rock/metal band??will i be lost in the mix
     
  5. Six String

    Six String Moderator Staff Member

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    ... small amps work... get your sound and put a 57 in front of it and let the PA crank it thru the system! :dude:
     
  6. purple dragon

    purple dragon New Member

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    Thanks six string fore your input .so you all say i can gig every venue exsept big stadium with 2 15w true a pa?i must say i do like the Sound better with my small amp but i somehow Try to find a excuse to keep my 100w rig
     
  7. Relic61

    Relic61 Well-Known Member

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    My only issue...it just doesn't sound or feel the same. The proverbial magic is gone so to say. Sure it 'works' (& I've made it 'work' through the PA with a small amp too) but the ass kickin presence & pant leg slappin adrenalin is gone when using most PA systems until you step up into high dollar systems capable of adequately reproducing the tonal range & sonic stage footprint of a Stack / Half Stack setup.

    I guess it comes down to there really being a discernible difference between getting a small amp to work or work good enough and the very real & tangible audible experience that Stack brings into the room & if you personally are OK with it. If you are into what a stack brings, offers & creates, you are honestly just going to be hard pressed duplicating that using small amps miced through most Entry through Mid level PA systems. It's a different beast entailing different components to create your guitar sound & you have to like the results or yer gonna be frustrated & miserable.

    If your playing Metal & kick ass R&R, it is very hard to replace or duplicate what a stack or half stack creates by mic'n up a low watt amp & using the PA to attempt to replicate that type guitar presence, sound range, & feel.

    Don't give up the stack bruddah. Experiment between the 2 & find out the good & bad, the plus' & minus', the benefits & shortcomings of both of them. It's a good brah. Learn'n about this stuff for yourself firsthand is fun & I strongly recommend it. Then you can post your findings & experience right here to share with others.
     
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  8. jojo68

    jojo68 Active Member

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    :dude::dude::thumb:
     
  9. Kris Ford

    Kris Ford Well-Known Member

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    Well put! You just can't bring a knife to a bazooka fight...
     
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  10. gtone

    gtone Well-Known Member

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    I've done both ways too, and the problem with the small amp mic'd up route is that you're often at the mercy at the quality of the sound system and/or sound guy running the board for your tone. The results can be great thru a good mic/sound system and a guy who knows how to run a board, but they can also be mixed in many cases and sometimes pure hell in others. A powerful combo or stack can many times eliminate that crutch and put you back in control.

    Concerning Marshall stacks/half stacks, these guys know from experience that no small amp mic'd thru a sound system can match the punch and sonic effect of a stack/half stack. Inescapable fact - sound systems are geared for high fidelity sound reproduction; guitar amps are not. If you're playing music that needs to have that impact, no small amp mic'd up can deliver.
     
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  11. purple dragon

    purple dragon New Member

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    that wath my guts tells me but everyone are using more and more small combos.and since i have change my setting i am afried to being told to turn down.and lose my sound.
    it was more easy whene i did use the gain/drive knob on 8 and a coued adjust the master volum now i have the gain/drive knob on 4-5 and master on 6-7 with a boost infront to get the sweet spot and thats is beginning to be loud.:dude:

    i am wondering wath you guys think on my rig its pretty simple:
    guitar then tuner. wah. octafuzz. booster. delay. chorus with 2 outputs to 2 halfstacks and that it some input please:)
     
  12. Tony M

    Tony M Well-Known Member

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    That depends on a number of things.

    The quality of the knife.
    The skill of the knife wielder.
    The skill (or lack thereof) of the bazooka guys.
    The terrain.
    The element of surprise.
    The planning.
    The amount of reinforcement(s) the knife guy has.
     
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  13. smitty_p

    smitty_p Well-Known Member

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    Shazzam!

    The Marshall Stackage aficionados have come out in a flurry of glorious, gold name-plated activity!

    Seriously, I love you all like the brothers I never had, especially you, Relic!

    Anyhoo, I think the decision to go small and mic or to go big really depends a lot on the venue and event. For me, the small amp plus mic works great and is really more suited for the venue.

    Don't forget, I did say a few posts ago that I do like the sound of Marshall, so don't melt my brain!
     
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  14. Relic61

    Relic61 Well-Known Member

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    Definitely depends don't it? Those itsy bitsy miced up marvels can surely get you through an Eagle's cover band gig and the like but most can't replicate what a stack brings for heavier feeling / sounding repertoire. That full bodied punch will be MIA so, I'd leave the cute wittle won watt wonders home if it's a metal or kick ass rock gig & bring the real thing. There just aint no getting that tight, full bodied sonic punch from anything but the most professional of setups.

    The real trick is replacing the movement created by 4 or 8 12inch speakers in a closed back cab! A small amp, average PA & monitors (with tweeters) just aint doing that.

    If this is really about the stack being done, finished, kaput obsolete, then these miced up little amps n PA systems have to do more than beat a stacks volume. They need to create that same awesome sonic footprint & that's where they usually fall short. It's ye olde 'Ya can't get theya from here' scenario. If the average PA can't produce the tonal sound & auditory smack that a stack makes, then the stack isn't replaced. You could probably leave the Fender Twin home easy enough but the stack is a different beast not yet vanquished by small amp & PA joining forces.

    Small amps through a PA are good for somethings but for some other things...not so much.

    Smitty....your serve.
     
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  15. Biddlin

    Biddlin Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
    No doubt about it, if I was in a BTO cover band, I'd want a stack or two, but for covering Wes or George Benson, not so much.
    Well, maybe this one
    [​IMG]
    ;>)/
     
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  16. smitty_p

    smitty_p Well-Known Member

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    My serve? But, I don't even play tennis. You see, I could never figure out the scoring. I mean, apparently you go straight from 0 to 15. Seems like quite a jump. Plus, "Zero" isn't zero. It's "Love." So, you go from "love" to fifteen? Weird.

    Anyway, I think we're on the same page. I see your point about the stack in the metal/hard R&R scenario. But, what I think a lot of hard rockers have trouble wrapping their minds around (not speaking about you, Relic, nor anyone else specifically on the forum) is that there are venues and events where a loud electric guitar is NOT desired. There are those applications where the electric guitar, while obvious, has no more important of a role than the keys, acoustic guitar, or other instruments.

    I often play in such situations. I may have a heavily distorted, grinding guitar sound going on, but it is intended to provide an undercurrent of drive, rather than be a bold, out-front sound. The same is true of leads. At times, I'll play a lead, but, the "lead" is intended more as a descant or high harmony than a solo. In these situations, I have to drive my amp hard enough to get the sound, but a loud amp on stage would overwhelm the total sound. So, it has to be controlled and blended with the rest of the instrumentation and vocals. The answer? Either use a processor or isolate my amp or speaker cabinet, mic it, and let the sound engineer balance the mix.

    True, the above is not metal or hard rock. It is also a role for the electric guitar that is foreign to many of those playing the club scene where loud and cranking guitars are expected. Now, I have played where I had to be loud. I've played with my amp unmic'ed and I've played mic'ed. I'm cool either way. I've even had it happen once or twice where the sound guy said to me, "Hey, you're loud enough that I don't even need to mic you. Just turn the amp toward the crowd, and I'll put everyone else in your monitor."

    What's more, there is a personal preference to it. Frankly, I don't like my guitar to be so loud coming at me that I don't have a good sense of what other instruments are doing.

    At any rate, the next time I'm in the Catskills, Relic, I'm gonna look you up so you can show me what I'm missing!
     
  17. Tony M

    Tony M Well-Known Member

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    In all these pages I never said the stack was obsolete.

    but

    If you stick an E609 in front of a MocroCube and plug
    that E609 into a 19,000 watt 8 X 18, 12 X 15, 16 x 12
    and assorted horn/tweeter arrays PA you can duplicate
    the sonic footprint of a 100 watt 8 X 12 stack quite
    nicely thank you very much.

    You will also get all the interaction and liveliness between
    the guitar and amplifier because of the 5,000 watts of
    wedges that come along for the ride, one of which
    will be staring you in the face with your guitar
    screaming out of it if you want.

    All that being said, There is NOTHING like playing through
    a 100 watt amplifier plugged into 4 or 8 X 12 inch speakers.

    It just feels good.
     
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  18. tolm

    tolm Active Member

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    And - most importantly - PROXIMITY! You / Me / 2 foot of space? I'll take the knife, good luck getting anywhere with the bazooka ...
     
  19. gtone

    gtone Well-Known Member

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    You stand two feet in front of my JMP half stack at "6" unattenuated and you're getting blown away. Unfortunately for the guy carrying the knife, this "bazooka" was built for close combat.:laugh2:
     
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  20. Bullfrog

    Bullfrog Well-Known Member

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