1964 SG Reissue horn shapes....

Discussion in 'Gibson SG' started by leftySG61, Aug 30, 2020.

  1. Stark Naked

    Stark Naked Active Member

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    PermissionToLand: Everything you said is absolutely valid except when I held the guitar up next to a real Angus Young and compared it, the body was obviously an Epiphone. Compare the body contours of an Epiphone to any real Gibson, which I did. Apparently serial numbers are no longer a valid test standard. This instrument was brand new, never been played. As you said, components and numbers all looked good but it's not a Gibson. Gibson did not tell me it was the real thing, they told me it was a valid twenty year old serial number. This is what scares me, fakers are clearing at least $1,500 from every sucker who doesn't have a real Angus to compare with. A good friend of mine has two of them. He's still laughing. Believe me, no one wanted that to be a real Angus Young more than I did.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
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  2. Stark Naked

    Stark Naked Active Member

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    [​IMG]

    Electronics are all correct, the jack is genuine Switchcraft:

    [​IMG][/QUOTE]
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
  3. DrBGood

    DrBGood Well-Known Member

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    Does it neck dive ?
     
  4. PermissionToLand

    PermissionToLand Well-Known Member

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    As I said, the original AY Signature model used the SG Standard body, which has always had shallow bevels, and yours matches a 2000 Standard perfectly:

    AY sig.jpg

    It also has fret-edge binding, something you'll never see on a counterfeit.

    I really hope you haven't taken action against that store or been slandering them all over the place because of your misconception.
     
  5. Stark Naked

    Stark Naked Active Member

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    OK have it your way. I'm sure some gullible novice Will be very happy paying $1,500 too much for a twenty year old guitar with no pick guard scratches at all, urethane finish and a sloppy head stock logo. I recently discovered I can buy another one just like it for about $350 from DHgate out of China. Check out their pictures. They look exactly right. Some how your missing it. This was a brand new guitar. You could smell that it was freshly painted. No scratches, no dings no finger prints. Brand new untarnished chrome. No pick skuffs on the pickup covers. There are no brand new signature Angus Youngs. Just new fakes with old serial numbers.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2020
  6. Stark Naked

    Stark Naked Active Member

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  7. Goldtone

    Goldtone Active Member

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    love it! Nice tight sharp edges. Truly stunning

    Thanks for sharing
     
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  8. PermissionToLand

    PermissionToLand Well-Known Member

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    There are nearly 60 year old SGs from 1961 that are still in mint condition. Lots of people hardly play their guitars or buy them as collectibles. It's not at all unbelievable that a 2000 SG could still be in like new condition, especially a signature model. I can't see the logo in your pics, but it's common for them to have finish cracking around the inlays because mother of pearl doesn't expand and contract like the wood around it does. IDK why you seem to think it was a urethane finish, and of course there's no way to determine that from photos, but you accidentally disproved it yourself; Nitrocellulose never fully cures, and therefore is offgassing for years after it's been painted. I can still smell the nitro on my 2007 SG. But you know what would really trap the paint fumes? Sitting in a case for 20 years.

    The counterfeit websites often use pictures of real Gibsons that they've just stolen from legit websites.
     
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  9. papagayo

    papagayo Well-Known Member

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    Is it an Epiclone ? :rofl:

    :D
     
  10. Stark Naked

    Stark Naked Active Member

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    PremissionToLand: I stand in awe of your expert knowledge of all things SG related and I thank you for your educated analysis of this instrument. However, I own several Gibson SG's old and new, and a few Epiphone g400's. After extensive comparisons of these instruments, I could only conclude that this AY guitar appeared to be a g400 with an altered head stock and electronics. Also the Maestro vibrola was made of a thinner gage metal than my Gibson's and had rough edges. My older Maestro's are nickel plated. This was chrome. It further had the mounting and screw pattern of the Epiphone equivalent. There was no cracking or checkering around the logo which seemed to be made from some sort of pearlescent sparkle plastic not mother of pearl and it ran over the edge of the lettering outline. I realize that you didn't have the opportunity to personally examine the instrument but I still respect and appreciate your opinion. Thank you for correcting so many of my misinformed assumptions. I'm sure you can understand my embarrassment when I showed this guitar to my friend who owns two originals.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2020
  11. cerebral gasket

    cerebral gasket Well-Known Member

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    I never put much thought into the horns. How the neck feels is the deal breaker for me when selecting a guitar. I play the neck, not the horns.
     
  12. Von Trapp

    Von Trapp Well-Known Member

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    As far as I know the Epis have the bars that go under the lyre cover screwed onto the base of the Vibrola and the Gibson ones are welded.
     
  13. papagayo

    papagayo Well-Known Member

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    What? You don' t play the horns?

    Try to play the horns, you will like :cool:
     
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  14. Stark Naked

    Stark Naked Active Member

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    My apologies for taking this conversational thread off in a different direction.
    I've noticed the subtle variations in the shape of the SG horns that you see on Japanese, Korean and Chinese versions seem to change the character or personality of the instrument. When you put on your guitar it becomes part of the image you want to project like your hairstyle or clothing. For this reason I think subtle changes or variations in the shape of an authentic Gibson SG is noteworthy.
     
  15. SG John

    SG John Well-Known Member

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    They have also advertised a John Cipollina tribute SG that used photos from the old ETSG site where Javamagic posted his build thread. It was easy to identify it as his guitar. His kitchen and the Irish 5p coins were a dead giveaway. Several members of the forum left comments that were removed immediately, and Java sent sever "Cease and Desist" letters.
     
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  16. SG John

    SG John Well-Known Member

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    I've seen many vintage guitars back from the fifties and sixties that looked like they were never touched. 99% of them were total dogs, and that's why. Many of the golden years guitars were hit or miss, and that's why there are some great "under the bed" finds. I would never buy one of those to play. I'd want the ones that look like they went to hell and back. Those are the keepers.
     
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  17. PermissionToLand

    PermissionToLand Well-Known Member

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    The Angus Young Signature is supposed to have chrome plated hardware because not only is it based on the chrome plated SG Standard, it's a pseudo-reissue of a late '60s Batwing SG, which all had chrome hardware after Gibson stopped using Nickel plating in 1965. As for the vibrola, Gibson has contracted their hardware production out to various firms over the years, and back in 2000 it was Ping Works, an Asian manufacturer. I'm not sure how you determined the gauge. Simply tapping on it is not evidence. I haven't heard any complaints about their Ping-made Nashville bridges from those years, either.

    As for the mounting style, you are comparing a modern version to 50+ year old originals. They will not be interchangeable. They've probably updated the mounting design with improved engineering. Likewise, you couldn't put a real 1968 pickguard on a modern SG Standard. Hell, you couldn't even put the '68 tuners on a modern Standard because the post sizes are different.

    The logo: Mother of Pearl, being a natural material like wood, can have a lot of variation in how it looks. The fact that it runs beyond the masked off portion is in fact a sign that it's genuine. You see, cutting the actual inlay into the logo's shape would be very difficult to do cleanly and without breaking it because the thin cursive connections between letters create fragile points. They simply take a solid piece cut roughly into the outline shape and mask it off during painting to create the logo. This can be seen on many Gibsons when the light hits it right:

    [​IMG]

    Finally, the idea that this is an Epiphone turned into a "Gibson" is impossible for many reasons. It would never be worth the effort; the amount work required by a luthier that could pull off something indistinguishable from a real Gibson would cost as much as a Gibson. Besides that, Epiphones have obvious giveaways built into the bodies like scarf joints and veneers over multi-piece Eastern-Mahogany bodies. To correct those, you would have to replace the neck and body, at which point it would just be an entirely new custom built guitar. Even if I believed you that it was not genuine, there would still be zero chance it's a modified Epiphone.

    When you say your friend owns Angus Signatures, the question is which ones? Because there have been 4 different versions produced over the years. They are all detailed here, if you're unfamiliar:

    https://solidguitar.fandom.com/wiki/Angus_Young_Signature_SG

    All of which have very shallow beveling, as is characteristic of Angus' favorite SGs from the late '60s/early '70s. Which is why it's strange that you say your friend's had deeper bevels.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2020
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  18. DrBGood

    DrBGood Well-Known Member

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    If I may ... that's not entirely true. Some, like the Vintage series (2002-2005) had a one piece neck and no veneer over well matched 3 piece body. I've had four of them and kept two. They even have the headstock with wings added. So these features could easily pass the fake test.

    Body.jpg

    One sure thing that makes it almost impossible is the 14° headstock angle, compared to the 17° of a Gibson.

    Headstock angle.jpg
     
  19. PermissionToLand

    PermissionToLand Well-Known Member

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    Eastern Mahogany can still be distinguished from Honduran Mahogany though. And the Vintage G400 has a '61 style neck joint. Gibsons also have fret edge binding, which would be very work intensive, and therefore expensive, to add. And of course, re-shaping the headstock would mean adding wood, which would be visually evident. I've never seen a conversion that looked convincing, I'll put it that way.
     
  20. Rusty Chops

    Rusty Chops Well-Known Member

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    Didn’t the big head ‘61 have 14?
     

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