Can Sound/Tone Be Improved In this 2016 SG Standard?

[Aelfwed]

Bought an SG Standard (although a used, cheap model for $800). I'd like to try to improve the tone/sound on this SG if possible (prefer more vintage than "modern" tones). Would like to have the most responsive vol and tone pots. Apparently this SG has 490R and 498T pickups. The pots don't have ohms stamped on them. Apparently they are 300k for vol and 500k for tone. Don't know anything about the capacitors.

QUESTION #1: I know this is a personal matter of taste, but for the best P90 sound possible, should I switch pickups to Gibson's '57 Classic Pickups (OR... is there someone making a better P90 that has a better frequency range, etc. that will fit in these pickup cavities)?

QUESTION #2: I believe it would be best to remove the circuit board pot/cap setup and just go with separate parts like the vintage models. A) Would CTS pots be best? B) Should I stick with the 300k for vol and 500k for tone, or change the ohms? C) Are .022 orange drop caps the best choice?

QUESTION #3: Would higher quality input jack and toggle switch have anything at all to do with better sound, or should I just leave those be?

QUESTION #4: Would changes like this really be worth the money, time and effort or is it possible that after these mods the guitar may not show any significant improvement in tone?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Col Mustard]

Welcome to ETSG Aelfwed... (cool Anglo-Saxon name too)

Q#1: SG Standard is equipped with humbuckers 490R and 498T.
Don't try and get a P-90 sound out of humbuckers...
>Also, IMHO the "humbucker sized" single coil p'ups don't give you a real P-90 sound either. If you want the tone of an SG with P-90s, I suggest you buy one. It's good to have both.

'57 Classic and Classic plus are excellent pickups too. The 490/498 set have a so-called "modern" sound and the '57s are built to sound like the old ones. You can get a crystal clear sound out of '57s, just like you can out of P-90s, but never the same sound.

>I'd play the stock p'ups for several months until you feel like you know how all the controls affect them before you think about switching.
EQ your signal, it's a lot cheaper than pickup swapping and it doesn't devalue a great guitar like your SG Standard.

Others will comment here saying what they recommend also. Lots of opinions. Your best opinion is your own, and the best way to make up your own mind is to play your SG a lot. And listen to what all my colleagues here will say.

Questions 2,3 and 4: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. You hear a lot of
Gibson bashing on fora, where people say Gibson's parts are no good. It's not true. Play it and make up your own mind.

If you make up your mind that you must install new p'ups, you can get a new traditional wiring harness too. CTS pots, like Grover tuners and other things people used to think were great, are made in China now so who knows if they are still any good. Maybe some of the guys on this forum can tell you. Bournes pots may be better.

 

[DrBGood]

This sounds like a textbook pickup height problem.

A screwdriver is the easiest, fastest, cheapest and by far the most efficient way to a good tone. You might replace your pickups a dozen times, if you put them back at the same height as the last ones, the problem will likely persist.


I'm not in the camp that better wiring and switch and jack and same value caps and pots will make your guitar sound better. Just think about it for a second. A pickup typical output is around 100–300 millivolts, that is almost homeopathic voltage.

Clothe covered or braided wiring for that amount of voltage will not change the quality of the signal that goes through a female jack in the guitar, connected to a male jack on a long cable, connected to another male jack, connected to another female jack going through an amp.
Mechanical parts like jack and toggle switch will never change your tone. Let's say you put the most expensive jack in the guitar. What does it matter if there's a $0.25 half plastic jack in the amp ? Toggle switch is made of contact points. they make contact or they don't, that's it. If they don't suddenly, clean them, it is a mechanical part, just like your car door hinges.

Caps. Caps of same value don't add anything if they are "better". A cap doesn't add, it substracts. Here again, homeopathic.

Potentiometers. Pots of same value are just like the toggle switch, contacts. You might not like their taper or the way they rotate. But if for the same value pot, tone improvements will be again homeopathic.

Get that screwdriver and spend some quality time with your nice SG. That is a fun thing to do. My suggestion, start by lowering the neck pickup to ring level and go on from there.

 

[DrBGood]

This sounds like a textbook pickup height problem.

A screwdriver is the easiest, fastest, cheapest and by far the most efficient way to a good tone. You might replace your pickups a dozen times, if you put them back at the same height as the last ones, the problem will likely persist.


I'm not in the camp that better wiring and switch and jack and same value caps and pots will make your guitar sound better. Just think about it for a second. A pickup typical output is around 100–300 millivolts, that is almost homeopathic voltage.

Clothe covered or braided wiring for that amount of voltage will not change the quality of the signal that goes through a female jack in the guitar, connected to a male jack on a long cable, connected to another male jack, connected to another female jack going through an amp.
Mechanical parts like jack and toggle switch will never change your tone. Let's say you put the most expensive jack in the guitar. What does it matter if there's a $0.25 half plastic jack in the amp ? Toggle switch is made of contact points. they make contact or they don't, that's it. If they don't suddenly, clean them, it is a mechanical part, just like your car door hinges.

Caps. Caps of same value don't add anything if they are "better". A cap doesn't add, it substracts. Here again, homeopathic.

Potentiometers. Pots of same value are just like the toggle switch, contacts. You might not like their taper or the way they rotate. But if for the same value pot, tone improvements will be again homeopathic.

Get that screwdriver and spend some quality time with your nice SG. That is a fun thing to do. My suggestion, start by lowering the neck pickup to ring level and go on from there.

I just saw this while proofreading what I just wrote. (sorry, I'm a visual artist)

 

[Turned Into a Martian]

“Almost homeopathic…” god that was great!

Anyway to the OP:
I recently swapped the PCB for a wiring harness with CTS 500k pots. I did it simply because I didn’t like the taper on the PCB and preferred it to be audio.

The quality of the PCB pots and switch were better. The sound barely, if at all, changed. That all being said I do think I have a better control with the new audio taper pots.

I also swapped magnets in the 490/498 sets. A5 from bridge to neck and A2 from neck to bridge. I think it may have been a useful change.

Overall I still love my SG standard more than any other guitar. I debate a P90 SG weekly but I think I’m don’t changing the standard. I had it get a good setup 10 years ago and honestly it’s still playing in tune as well as my fender with locking tuners.

Get a good setup and think about what you don’t like. In my case the 498 was just really hot whenever I used modelers.

 

[DrBGood]

“Almost homeopathic…” god that was great!

Anyway to the OP:
I recently swapped the PCB for a wiring harness with CTS 500k pots. I did it simply because I didn’t like the taper on the PCB and preferred it to be audio.

The quality of the PCB pots and switch were better. The sound barely, if at all, changed. That all being said I do think I have a better control with the new audio taper pots.

I also swapped magnets in the 490/498 sets. A5 from bridge to neck and A2 from neck to bridge. I think it may have been a useful change.

Overall I still love my SG standard more than any other guitar. I debate a P90 SG weekly but I think I’m don’t changing the standard. I had it get a good setup 10 years ago and honestly it’s still playing in tune as well as my fender with locking tuners.

Get a good setup and think about what you don’t like. In my case the 498 was just really hot whenever I used modelers.

About those 490/498, didn't know they had different magnets (didn't really look into it). Great idea there. I can see how it would help the 498, but how did it change the 490 ? Made it brighter ?

I too find the 498 a bit hot in my Studio, so I mostly play it at 8 on the knob and it's not bad at all.

 

[ChubbyFingers]

Q1 - You aren't going to get P90 sound out of a set of humbuckers. You could try Seymour Duncan P-Rails, but I, for one, didn't like them in my 2015 SG.

As others have said, try adjusting the pickup heights and playing the guitar for a while. If you still don't like them, there are plenty of aftermarket options.

My SG currently has Seymour Duncans - a 59/ Custom in the bridge and a Jazz in the neck. There are also options like Seth Lovers, Saturday Night Specials, Whole Lotta Humbuckers and others, plus offerings from DiMarzio and others.

But a humbucker is always going to sound like a humbucker.

Q2 - Junk the original wiring. Use CTS TAOT (10%) 500K pots, 550s even, throughout. You could use 1 meg or 500k or up no contact pots on the tones. Use 0.022 uF 200 volt orange drops if you must, but cheap ceramic or polyester caps will work just as well. I sayy 200 volt because they're considerably smaller than the 400 volt ones. I'm quite aware you don't need 200 volt rated components in a guitar, but I don't thing you'll find 10 volt ones either.

I have my SG wired for independent volume controls and I use a 0.022 uF on the bridge, and a 0.015 uF in the neck.

You might be able to get a push pull under the cover, depending on how deep the control cavity is, and you could try putting in a phase flip and or coil splits. Mine is wired straight though.

Q3 - the switch should be a genuine Switchcraft already. Changing it will have absolutely no effect on tone.

As for the OUT put jack, if you're rewiring it I would spend the extra $8 or so and fit a dual contact socket like this one. It won't have any effect on tone whatsoever, but it will give you a more secure connection.

Pure Tone Multi-Contact 1/4 inch Mono Output Jack | Nickel | Dual Tension Grounds & Dual Positive Tips for Optimal Signal, Tone & Lowest Possible Noise https://a.co/d/2ccfr6D

Q4 - Your money, your decisions. The Law of Diminishing Returns will apply.

Adjusting the pickup heights will cost zero.

Pot and cap changes will cost you around $40 to $50 and will deliver the biggest improvement per dollar spent, once you actually start spending.

A set of decent replacement humbuckers will cost you over $200.

For $500 delivered you could get an Epi SG Special with P90s. But then I just did that and have just put $100 worth of mods into mine and am waiting to see how well I like the Epi P90s.

 

[Decadent Dan]

Now there are many choices for a humbucker-sized p90. I would look for similar specs. 8k A5 etc. Add some quick connects and it’s plug & play.

Your pcb probably already has 500k CTS pots, possibly 450 series (numbers on side).
You can check all pot values with a multimeter (a cheap one will do). Just unplug the pickups at the pcb so the meter doesn’t read them.

The output jack and switch are probably fine as-is. Some early SG pcb’s had the jack mounted on it. At some point Gibson separated the jack from the pcb.

A pair of humbucker-sized p-90’s with quick connects would be the easiest way to do it without altering anything else on the guitar.

You could find a humbucker with similar brightness and output as a p-90 (in my opinion would be the Burstbucker Pro) but the humbucker vs single-coil difference still exists.

 

[Go Nigel Go]

BIG +1 on taking some time to work on height adjustments. The sound you want may be there already just masked by less than optimal adjustment.

The only component in the control cavity that will noticeably affect tone is the value of the tone cap, not the type/shape/color/age of the cap, just the boring old capacitance value in microfarads.

Ohms is just the measure resistance and that doesn't directly change anything in the sound quality. The function of a resistor is to reduce the current passing through the circuit.

The only caveat has to do with the pickups. In the pickup more Ohms is typically an indication of the number of windings, and more windings is what equals higher output in spite of the higher resistance not because of it. Everywhere else more Ohms is just more resistance to current with no additive value to anything, just reduced signal over all.

Your Pots are rated by their maximum resistance value, but the sweep is typically a range from zero up to the rated resistance value. When you turn your volume up on the guitar, you are reducing the resistance in the pot. Max volume is zero Ohms no matter what the max rated value of the pot is. When set at zero, or 20k, or 100k ohms, a rated 300k pot will sound just like a 500k pot at the same measured resistance. The only difference is that the 500k pot can offer more resistance which means it can choke down a hotter pickup, while a 300k pot may still let some signal bleed through at its max setting.

 

[Bad Penguin]

As many others have said, a few twists of a screwdriver might be the best investment.
IF you still want that P90 vibe, I recommend a series/parallel switch. Basically turns the humbucker into a quiet big single coil.

2 Humbuckers/3-Way Toggle Switch/2Volumes/2 Tones/Series Parallel

Gibson style guitar wiring diagram with 2 humbuckers, 3-way toggle switch, two volumes and two tone controls, plus a push/pull switch on each pickups volume control to select series or parallel mode. <strong>Click diagram image to open/view full size version.</strong> </strong> Ready to get...

guitarelectronics.com

 

[smitty_p]

Bought an SG Standard (although a used, cheap model for $800). I'd like to try to improve the tone/sound on this SG if possible (prefer more vintage than "modern" tones). Would like to have the most responsive vol and tone pots. Apparently this SG has 490R and 498T pickups. The pots don't have ohms stamped on them. Apparently they are 300k for vol and 500k for tone. Don't know anything about the capacitors.

QUESTION #1: I know this is a personal matter of taste, but for the best P90 sound possible, should I switch pickups to Gibson's '57 Classic Pickups (OR... is there someone making a better P90 that has a better frequency range, etc. that will fit in these pickup cavities)?

QUESTION #2: I believe it would be best to remove the circuit board pot/cap setup and just go with separate parts like the vintage models. A) Would CTS pots be best? B) Should I stick with the 300k for vol and 500k for tone, or change the ohms? C) Are .022 orange drop caps the best choice?

QUESTION #3: Would higher quality input jack and toggle switch have anything at all to do with better sound, or should I just leave those be?

QUESTION #4: Would changes like this really be worth the money, time and effort or is it possible that after these mods the guitar may not show any significant improvement in tone?

Thanks in advance.

Before diving into your questions, let me echo some of what has already been said. Play your guitar. Make sure it is set up well and just get used to it. You may discover after you get to know it that you don't really want to mod it after all. I am not against modding. But, it can be a waste of time and money to do so before really getting a sense of the guitar, as it is now. Consider the amp and cabinet as well. Lots of effort and expense can be directed at modding a guitar to get a sound, when the real attention needs to be given to the amp and/or speaker.

That said, here are my thoughts:

Q1: If you are going for a P-90 sound, the closest you'll get to that without doing major surgery to your guitar will be to install humbucker-sized P-90s. Now, these will NOT sound exactly like a traditional soapbar/dogear P-90. But, they will sound closer to a P-90 than you will get with a full-sized humbucker. I have '57 Classics in one of my SGs. They do not sound like P-90s.

Q2: The only thing I think there is to gain by removing the PCB elements and components is that it does make it easier to source and install aftermarket parts, like potentiometers. If you think you'll be swapping pots in and out, it may be good to change to a traditional harness. A) A lot of people like CTS. They are good. Personally, I prefer Bourns simply because I prefer the taper and the overall feel. But, they aren't inherently better. B). If you install a P-90-ish pickup, I'd consider leaving the 300K pot. But, there is certainly nothing wrong with seeing if you like the 500K. C) A capacitor value of .022 mFd is pretty standard for humbuckers, but by no means required. I have .015 on one of my guitars. I had a guitar with .033 mFd caps. It all comes down to how you want the tone controls to behave.

Q3: I have replaced toggle switches to get a more reliable, rugged switch. It does nothing for tone, but may be good for dependability. But, if it already has something like a Switchcraft, don't bother replacing it if it is currently working okay.

Q4: The "worth" is entirely subjective. If the guitar is unmodified at this point, modding the guitar will affect its resale value (if that is a concern). You are very unlikely recoup the expenditures at time of sale. Keep that in mind. But, an SG Standard is not exactly a rare guitar. There are thousands and thousands of them. I would say, the "worth" of any mods is up to you.

 

[smitty_p]

Here’s an interesting comparison of soapbar style P90s to humbucker sized P90s.

Keep in mind this is with a Tele style guitar, so the scale length is different than a Gibson, but you can hear the similarities between the two pickups.

 

[Col Mustard]

excellent video. I still like my regular P-90s but these pickups
sound like they can be EQ'd very close.... the DiMarzio noiseless
P-90 sounds like a great innovation.

Keep your SG Standard as issued IMHO
and get a used Epiphone to install the P-90 pups in
because you'll likely want both.

 

[Les’s Nemisis]

It's a good video. I think you can hear that the humbucker P90 has a little fuller and less edgy sound vs. the real P90. That was much more so for the neck pickup vs. the bridge. When he adds in the humbucking version of the P90, I think you hear a drop in top-end and some of the body of sound. Not horrible, but sounds a little like there's a tiny humbucker sized blanket on the pickup.

I think I might be disappointed with the humbucking humbucker sized P90, but the humbucker sized P90 sounds fairly good. If you told me it was just a variation of a P90 and I couldn't see the actual pickup, I'd be fooled.

But, he's only playing one genre of music. I'd consider it metal-ish Rhythm. He didn't do any leads or upper register work at all. No clean leads. Depending on what you play, it could be better, worse, or indifferent.

I wouldn't discourage you from trying some humbucker sized P90's unless you're already a P90 diehard and have a specific sound in mind. You won't know until you give it a whirl. You won't be making any irreversible changes, except to your wallet, and you can resell to get a big chunk of that back.