GIBSON U.S.A. ? REALLY ? UH, NOT !

MR D

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But, bigger question here...... Does it neck dive?

Great question, not enough to matter. The new Kluson TM's are 1 ounce lighter overall for the set of 6...previously the neck did dive slightly, not a dive-bomber though. A suede back strapped fixed that and now with the 'Revolutions' being slightly lighter its not an issue at all. Axe weighs in at 5 Lbs. 15 ounces. It is in the top 5 of SG's I have played. Gettin the 490's out of it and putting '61R and '57 in it was key.. its pretty WICKED sounding now, IIDSSM !
 

MR D

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I don't think it is debatable at all. There are good and bad parts from many places. There is nothing inherent in imports that makes them low quality. In fact, there is copious evidence to the contrary across the entire spectrum of crafts and manufactured products.

As one who had a front row seat to the decline of the American auto industry in the 1970's, I can tell you for a fact that LACK of domestic quality was what was primarily responsible for the rise of the imports in the late '70s and early '80s. The reasons are far more complex than where the stuff came from, and there is nothing that precludes making quality goods here or abroad, but nothing that guarantees it either.

That is true, I know. IMO, That decline was done on purpose.
The Big 3 USA Auto-makers did the '70's POS routine because the USA auto's (Cutlass 'S', Delta 88, Elektra 225's, Bonneville WILDCATs, 'Stangs, Galaxy 500's etc...) from the 60's lasted 20 years and that affects sales negatively. They want return customers every 3-5 years. AIS, we could debate this all day/night long.


DGMW, China is a wealthy country now, and guess at whose expense ?
 
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MR D

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Relax pal , the made by Ping thing is old news .. if the tuners are high quality , and do their job , what's the big deal ?

I did not know, it was news to me and I really thought the TM's were USA Made Grovers or Kluson's. 'Made in U.S.A.' is clearly stamped on the Guitar.....IDL to repeat myself, but it is deceptive on GIBSON USA's part, the 'U.S.A.' part especially. That is all.

These particular TM's were actually POS. They were Cheep feeling, one felt like the gear may be warped and most felt like they had 'Play' in them. The Kluson's on there now are an improvement, and FWIWT they're also foreign made. Did not look at the markings on them, should have.

It also looks like you are correct as I did also change the TM's on another GIBSON SG Standard recently as well, a 2020, and they were actually really good quality TM's. Substantial feeling, turned smoothly, accurate. I just took a look at the markings on them, and sure enuff...P.W. was on them......'Ping Works', South Korea. I did not know till then. So, 1 good set, 1 bordering on POS/bad set. So 'PING' is batting .500 in my league. I'd rather they were USA made TM's...I just would. Sperzel may be the only remaining USA T.M. manufacturer. IDNK that either when I bought the 'Revolutions' or I'd have bought the Sperzels. For me 'Made in U.S.A.' means exactly that. Maybe 'Assembled in U.S.A.' would be more accurate ?

Relax? Here we go.
 

Brooklyn Zeke

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Yup. And it may actually be BETTER for you the end user in the full analysis. There is skilled and unskilled labor in every nation on earth. Due to economic disparities (which is a whole new level of political discussion I won't get into), you may get a better product made in another country for a cheaper price if the skilled labor there costs less than unskilled labor here. Is it fair? No. There are a ton of issues beyond the scope of what I can/desire get into here, but the only question you need to answer for yourself here is whether or not the tuners are of sufficient quality to justify the cost. A lot of it will come down to the design first, and to a slightly lesser extent the workmanship. If a tuner works smoothly, and has sufficient strength and mechanical advantage, it is going to work just fine. Would it bug you if it was made in Switzerland by apprentice clock makers? Would it make any difference when tuning your guitar?

If we want to talk political economies, I have a whole host of thoughts and opinions, some of which are sure to pi$$ off somebody in every camp.
You made some valid points. It is worth stating that Gibson recently emerged from Chapter 11 bankruptcy. In order to be competitive and survive, they outsource many components simply because Asian labor costs less compared to American salaries. Rosewood and mahogany aren't grown in the U.S.A. They must be imported. Gibson doesn't contract for foreign parts blindly. They vet the merchandise by testing on instruments to assure that they perform the task(s) for which they're designed before issuing purchase orders. I'd ask the OP that, if he were to buy an "American" car, would he be upset knowing that almost half the components in their manufacture are outsourced from non-domestic suppliers?
 

Brooklyn Zeke

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If you were handed two guitars, and one made in America and the other made in Asia, would you be able to tell them apart? If not, your reasons for loving American-made guitars are spurious.
Not only that, it is almost impossible to buy anything "Made in U.S.A." that is 100% manufactured from domestic components, like it or not.
 

Von Trapp

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I think the issue here is whether they have the right to use the term "Made in U.S.A" or not and I think it's interesting. Haven't read the paper carefully yet but at a first glance I'd say that the tuners can hardly be considered an insignificant part. As for the automobiles, there's special mention of this and I doubt the manufacturers use the term.
 

donepearce

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The precise wording is a lawyer's dream. We have a great example over here. Scottish Smoked Salmon can be sourced from anywhere in the world as long as it is smoked in Scotland. But - Smoked Scottish Salmon has to be made from fish caught in Scottish waters. Like that makes a difference.
 

Von Trapp

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I might be a lunatic but I actually like drawing up contracts and precise wording. In the above case, one salmon is clearly Scottish and one is just smoked, the Scottish way. If you imagine that I would sell these products here in Sweden it's quite easy to tell the difference, I'd say.
 

donepearce

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I might be a lunatic but I actually like drawing up contracts and precise wording. In the above case, one salmon is clearly Scottish and one is just smoked, the Scottish way. If you imagine that I would sell these products here in Sweden it's quite easy to tell the difference, I'd say.

I've bought smoked salmon at Arlanda airport. Each one would have easily paid any lawyer's fee!
 

MR D

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I think the issue here is whether they have the right to use the term "Made in U.S.A" or not and I think it's interesting. Haven't read the paper carefully yet but at a first glance I'd say that the tuners can hardly be considered an insignificant part. As for the automobiles, there's special mention of this and I doubt the manufacturers use the term.

That was/is my one and only point. It certainly looks fraudulent to me, to actually stamp the Guitar with 'Made in U.S.A.' when there is a significant part of the Guitar Made in South Korea.
When I was told about the TM's being non-American made, I was really disappointed. FFS...Gibson needs the $78.50 they saved that badly, to avoid putting a 'Made in U.S.A.' TM set on the guitar ? It was not a cheep guitar, no. The MSRP (and I paid it) was $1999.00 w/No Tax and free shipping from AMS dot com.
All is well with the guitar, it ROCKS and The Kluson 'Revolutions' on the Guitar now are superb TM's. I had originally thought they were USA made as well.
 

Decadent Dan

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That was/is my one and only point. It certainly looks fraudulent to me, to actually stamp the Guitar with 'Made in U.S.A.' when there is a significant part of the Guitar Made in South Korea.
When I was told about the TM's being non-American made, I was really disappointed. FFS...Gibson needs the $78.50 they saved that badly, to avoid putting a 'Made in U.S.A.' TM set on the guitar ? It was not a cheep guitar, no. The MSRP (and I paid it) was $1999.00 w/No Tax and free shipping from AMS dot com.
All is well with the guitar, it ROCKS and The Kluson 'Revolutions' on the Guitar now are superb TM's. I had originally thought they were USA made as well.
I’m more curious about the no sales tax thing. I bought a $1,500 Standard thru the same seller but on Reverb, instead of the sellers’ site. Reverb collected the tax, it was $105.00 USD. Tax on my Junior was around $90. You said something in another post about no tax buying straight from the manufacturer too. I wonder how all that works.
 
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MR D

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I’m more curious about the no sales tax thing. I bought a $1,500 Standard thru the same seller but on Reverb, instead of the sellers’ site. Reverb collected the tax, it was $105.00 USD. Tax on my Junior was around $90. You said something in another post about no tax buying straight from the manufacturer too. I wonder how all that works.

Ouch, that tax thang, again !
Well, I do know that Gibson dot com did not charge me sales tax about 3-4 weeks ago on a Flying 'V', saving me just north of $175, a considerable amount. This could have changed in the time since I bought the Guitar, but IDK, hopefully not. Check it out ? The entity selling the item answers to the tax man...so I am not expecting a bill.
The Tax Man got wise to the Internet Sales Tax $$$ they were losing and put and end to it sometime in 2019, IIRC. Pretty sure individual State Legislatures were the actual legislating bodies that closed the loop-hole on Internet Sales Tax status....nice while it lasted.
The fact that GIBSON is not collecting sales tax leads me to think that , maybe, the State of Tennessee has yet to close the Internet Sales Tax loop-hole ? But IDK . Someone here on ETSG had mentioned Gibson had Free Shipping and No Sales tax.... I O him a few drinks. I had thought the whole No Sales Tax on Internet Sales thang was over, pleasant surprise that was.
I can only think that the Gibson No Sales Tax on On-Line sales will come to an end, and sooner rather than later, yes ? But, IDK, maybe with the Retailer's cut (40% ???) out of the picture Gibson U.S.A. doesn't mind footing the tax bill ?
 
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chilipeppermaniac

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Talking of spurious... I wasn't talking about comparing a bad Asian guitar with a good US guitar. And while we are at it, there is absolutely nothing second rate about Epiphones. My ES339 has a build quality that would shame most Gibson's.

Don, I had a $300-$400 Epi Ej200, Dot ( ES335 ) copy, Epi ES175 and all were Perfect guitars.

I also bought an Epi 2010 LP STD but it had a few issues like oval holes for the Tail Piece inserts that mount in the body. The 2 inserts began to lift upward and tilted toward the bridge. I wound up gluing the dowels in the holes and drilled for tight re-fitting of the grommets and reinstalling the tailpiece. Never had a problem since.
 

PermissionToLand

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Genius posting and as far as I can see it means that the OP might actually be right.... This just got interesting.

Gibson wouldn't be able to stamp this into the headstock if they didn't qualify for an unqualified Made in USA claim:

msogkw3gdq534dm8dogl.jpg


Although I will say, it doesn't really seem to meet the high bar for an unqualified claim by my reading. Maybe some day if they get more scrutiny from the feds, they might have to start stamping "80% Made in USA" instead. :rofl:
 

Von Trapp

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Although I will say, it doesn't really seem to meet the high bar for an unqualified claim by my reading. Maybe some day if they get more scrutiny from the feds, they might have to start stamping "80% Made in USA" instead

That's my thought too. I wonder how often these things are checked and how. I mean, I find it hard to believe that once a year some men in black would turn up at your factory and demand to see your stuff. And the stamp has been there for a while...
 


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