HedZeppelin's Tools of the Trade

Discussion in 'Lessons & Techniques' started by HedZeppelin, Dec 5, 2007.

  1. mickeyfrets

    mickeyfrets Member

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    1Way is absolutely correct. The minor pentatonic and the blues scale are not the same thing. The blues scale contains the b5 which is what gives it its whole character. The minor pentatonic does not use the b5. For example - Am pentatonic is A, C, D, E and G, whilst A blues scale is A, C, D, Eb, E and G. As you rightly say, 1Way, pentatonic has 5 notes and blues has 6. To hear the 'true' blues scale go listen to some SRV. Also the solo to Stairway To Heaven is almost entirely pentatonic minor apart from the occasional use of the note F (b6) which is used to fit the accompanying F chord rather than as part of an Aolian mode.
     
  2. 1Way

    1Way Active Member

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    Mickeyfrets
    Thanks for the info. One side of an issue is clarified but more remains unclear. Some things to consider. Fair warning, I'm not much more than a beginner at music theory.

    Ancestral attestation
    Although these two scales are very similar, they are not the same. Classic/early rockers paid much more homage to the blues back then than they have since, and seemingly all DIY rock guitarist instructional materials teach you how to play the most used rock scale, which is the pentatonic scale and they don't teach you the blues scale. So why did they grab the wrong scale, or is it the wrong scale? I have a lot to learn about the blues (& guitar music theory), but I'm also wondering,,,

    Functional use
    How many blues numbers/performers use the pentatonic scale instead of the blues scale, Voxy, ESSER, HedZep, mickeyfrets?

    Same only different
    Can you functionally play the Pentatonic as the blues scale via strategically located; bends, chromatic movement and pre-bent notes? Sometimes I think the blues scale sounds more like an embellished pentatonic scale than it does a different scale. But perhaps the blue notes are that important...
     
  3. HedZeppelin

    HedZeppelin Member

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    True, they are not the same thing. However the fingering is the same in the positions that I noted. I never get into the "This note is flatted and this one is not"....I am more of a visual person, where I visualize shapes and forms rather than knowing which note is flatted or sharped in one and not in the other.

    The intent of this thread was to show a limited amount of "shapes".....and show that they are movable as well.
     
  4. HedZeppelin

    HedZeppelin Member

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    [quote author=1Way link=topic=15773.msg202445#msg202445 date=1198419845]
    Mickeyfrets
    Thanks for the info. One side of an issue is clarified but more remains unclear. Some things to consider. Fair warning, I'm not much more than a beginner at music theory.

    Ancestral attestation
    Although these two scales are very similar, they are not the same. Classic/early rockers paid much more homage to the blues back then than they have since, and seemingly all DIY rock guitarist instructional materials teach you how to play the most used rock scale, which is the pentatonic scale and they don't teach you the blues scale. So why did they grab the wrong scale, or is it the wrong scale? I have a lot to learn about the blues (& guitar music theory), but I'm also wondering,,,

    Functional use
    How many blues numbers/performers use the pentatonic scale instead of the blues scale, Voxy, ESSER, HedZep, mickeyfrets?

    Same only different
    Can you functionally play the Pentatonic as the blues scale via strategically located; bends, chromatic movement and pre-bent notes? Sometimes I think the blues scale sounds more like an embellished pentatonic scale than it does a different scale. But perhaps the blue notes are that important...
    [/quote]

    Alot of that depends on the key. After you learn both the major pentatonic and
    the blues scale, you are better able to distinguish the two when you hear another player using them. The blues guys mixed and matched the pentatonic major (country) scale with the pentatonic minor (blues) scale. A good example...is Eric Clapton's solos in his cover of "Crossroads".....Jimmy Page did it alot too....a prime example is his solos in "Livin' Lovin' Maid"...and many others.
     
  5. 1Way

    1Way Active Member

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    HedZep
    How can the 6 note blues scale be a 5 note (minor) pentatonic scale?
     
  6. Zeppelin Rules

    Zeppelin Rules Active Member

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    [quote author=1Way link=topic=15773.msg202464#msg202464 date=1198448750]
    HedZep
    How can the 6 note blues scale be a 5 note (minor) pentatonic scale?

    [/quote]

    Bear in mind that I haven't read the thread all the way through, but the blues scale is the same as the pentatonic scale but with one note (the flatted fifth or blues note) added.
     
  7. 1Way

    1Way Active Member

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    ZepRules
    That's what we've been trying to tell HedZep, but he keeps coming back to the idea that the blues scale is
    either:
    -the relative minor pentatonic scale (5 note scale moved down three frets from the root)
    or
    - the Pentatonic minor scale (still just 5 notes).

    Thanks for the input. Hope this helps.
     
  8. Zeppelin Rules

    Zeppelin Rules Active Member

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    [quote author=1Way link=topic=15773.msg202467#msg202467 date=1198451407]
    ZepRules
    That's what we've been trying to tell HedZep, but he keeps coming back to the idea that the blues scale is
    either:
    -the relative minor pentatonic scale (5 note scale moved down three frets from the root)
    or
    - the Pentatonic minor scale (still just 5 notes).

    Thanks for the input. Hope this helps.
    [/quote]

    Maybe what he means is that those scales are both used often in blues, as neither of those statements is incorrect per se. However a blues scale usually includes the blues note.
     
  9. HedZeppelin

    HedZeppelin Member

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    I never use 6 notes in the blues scale, only 5. I think that it's incorrect to say that there are 6 notes. The Eb note in the A blues scale that Mickey Frets is referring to is not actually part of the blues scale proper. Sorry, but that's the way I learned it anyway. There are "in-between-notes" that you can use in the blues scale, but they're not actually considered part of the blues scale proper.
    Also, that's why the pentatonic minor and the blues scale are really the same thing.

    I'll post this for further clarity. And..it would be helpful if you utilize rather than analyze....

    [img width=300 height=480]http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y73/git_man1/PentBlues.png[/img]
     
  10. HedZeppelin

    HedZeppelin Member

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    Why didn't that pic post right?
     
  11. HedZeppelin

    HedZeppelin Member

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    [img width=300 height=480]http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y73/git_man1/PentBlues.png[/img]
     
  12. 1Way

    1Way Active Member

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    Thanks for clarifying and drawing up the diagram. Obviously you care that we eventually understand what your saying. There remains the issue about the blues scale consisting of 6 notes instead of 5. But first things first. You didn't place the blues scale (relative minor three frets down) away from the root, you labeled the pentatonic scale three frets away from the root. Check your low E string second diagram, it's A then C not A then A. Of course you forgot some frets and strings,,, details details.
    ;D

    recent post...
    It posted the same both times HedZep, probably need to check the way you saved it, might have accidentally loaded up/hosted the wrong file.

    I'll revise my post as the case may be.
     
  13. HedZeppelin

    HedZeppelin Member

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    Good catch!
    I stand corrected on that, it should indeed be a C!
    Actually, the same as the High E, but two octaves lower
     
  14. mickeyfrets

    mickeyfrets Member

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    ok, let me clarify what is and isn't going on here. What you are demonstrating as the pentatonic scale is actually the pentatonic major scale. What you are illustrating as the blues scale is actually the pentatonic minor scale. You are misrepresenting the blues scale throughtout because you don't like the use of flat5 or the term flat5 (probably because you don't understand what it is) which is fair enough but you are misleading and confusing others who are trying to learn from you. The blues scale has, by its very nature, a sixth note which is the flat 5th. It's not a blues scale unless that note is present. Most players (of any instrument) refer to it as the 'blue' note.
     
  15. Voxman

    Voxman Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes, that blues scale in A is not factual
     
  16. 1Way

    1Way Active Member

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    Theory can get :crazy2:

    ;D

    The latest diagram has me confused because I would have expected the blues scale to be three frets "away from" the root/key/home position, but for some reason the blues scale is at the root/key and conversely the pentatonic scale is "three frets away" from root/key.

    Example
    If the key is A (root/key at 6th string 5th fret) and your using the pentatonic scale, your home/starting position is, 6th string 5th fret. And then it's the 8th fret, then 5th string 5th and 7th frets, then 4th string 5th and 7th and so on.
    Question
    To get the relative minor of the pentatonic scale at home/root position starting at 5th fret (see example), do you move the scale three frets away to a
    lower or
    higher pitch?
     
  17. HedZeppelin

    HedZeppelin Member

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    [quote author=mickeyfrets link=topic=15773.msg202659#msg202659 date=1198811141]
    ok, let me clarify what is and isn't going on here. What you are demonstrating as the pentatonic scale is actually the pentatonic major scale. What you are illustrating as the blues scale is actually the pentatonic minor scale. You are misrepresenting the blues scale throughtout because you don't like the use of flat5 or the term flat5 (probably because you don't understand what it is) which is fair enough but you are misleading and confusing others who are trying to learn from you. The blues scale has, by its very nature, a sixth note which is the flat 5th. It's not a blues scale unless that note is present. Most players (of any instrument) refer to it as the 'blue' note.
    [/quote]

    Ok, I'll concede to that. We have one note difference. However, it really isn't that big a deal, is it. I've always referred to that as the
    blues scale. So, it's the pentatonic minor. Just by playing that extra note, it's the blues scale? WTF? I'm not really THAT technical, but if you wanna split hairs, then I agree.

    Here's a diagram.
    http://www.blguitar.com/lesson/advanced/5blues_shapes.html
     
  18. mickeyfrets

    mickeyfrets Member

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    Hopefully this answers 1ways question.

    The A MINOR pentatonic scale begins on the 5th fret, 6th string first finger (A):
    http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa20/mickeyfrets/MinorPentAsc.gif

    The A BLUES scale begins on the same note (A) and looks like this:
    http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa20/mickeyfrets/ABluesScale.gif

    The A MAJOR pentatonic begins on the same note (A) but is played with the left hand 4th finger and the scale looks like this:
    http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa20/mickeyfrets/APentatonicMajor.gif

    This could be seen as moving the minor pentatonic down 3 frets, but you still need to begin on the note A at the 5th fret in order for it to be heard as an A major pentatonic scale.

    The numbers in the tab correspond to Left hand fingers and not right hand as indicated.

    To sum up - there are 2 pentatonic scales, one major one minor, but they both begin on the same note. The blues scale is a variation on the minor pentatonic and is a seperate scale in it's own right.

    To answer HedZep: When is a blues scale not a blues scale? When it does not include a flat 5th. That extra note makes a huge difference. I'm not splitting hairs I'm trying to undo a lot of the confusion in this thread.
     
  19. HedZeppelin

    HedZeppelin Member

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    Ok, well, I've used the flatted 5th note within the minor pent as a passing note.
    Confusion is cleared up, and your explanation is very good.

    I really don't get into the technical part of it so much as using the block patterns.
    However, in any of the scales, your starting position doesn't necessarily have to be the root note.
     
  20. 1Way

    1Way Active Member

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    mickeyfrets
    Thanks much!
    and HedZeppelin
    I withdraw my mistake that your chart was backwards and still appreciate learning how this works.

    So the blues version of the pentatonic scale is located at home/root/key (5th fret A), for some undisclosed reason is called the (A) "minor pentatonic" scale, and three frets LOWER is the (A?) major pentatonic.
    :?

    Back to my example, it's in the key of A at the 5th fret. I assume that's Amaj. So I grab the 1,4,5 and play blues licks around home position starting the penta scale at 5th fret. Are you saying that penta scale is in the key of Aminor(?) instead of A(natural)?
     

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