Help identifying a SG model

[UFGator88]

Hello--I've come across a Gibson SG locally and have been unable to identify the model after several hours of Internet research. Very confused by the single tone/volume knobs and the larger pick guard. Hoping the collective wisdom of the forum can help me! (Also aware it could be a fake).

If it is authentic, how can I verify the hardware?

Thank you in advance!

 

[Col Mustard]

Gibson used to offer a service where they'd check your guitar's serial
number and tell you when and where it was made, and what it was
originally equipped with. I don't know if they still do, but it's worth looking for. Gibson serial numbers from the late sixties through the seventies are very confusing... they repeat some from other times.

This guitar looks genuine to me, checking out your pictures.
The finish and the harmonica bridge indicate a '70s instrument.
The witch hat knobs might have been original, but most '70s Gibbies
used speed knobs.

The Grover tuners look like they were factory installed (I don't see any
extra holes for Kluson gears)... The double humbuckers might have been added later as a mod. This guitar might have had a single P-90 pickup and an SG Junior pick guard... that would become obvious if you removed the P/G and looked for extra screw holes in the top
and looked carefully at the routings for the p'ups.

Others here know more than I do. They'll show up.

 

[Decadent Dan]

It looks funky to me. Run.
It MIGHT be a batwing Junior converted to a 2-humbucker pickguard. Which means it’s been routed. It just doesn’t look right. The logo, the tall knobs.
What do the pots and cap look like?

 

[UFGator88]

It looks funky to me. Run.
It MIGHT be a batwing Junior converted to a 2-humbucker pickguard. Which means it’s been routed. It just doesn’t look right. The logo, the knobs.
What do the pots and cap look like?

I had a similar thought, which explains the mismatch in the number of pickups and the number of knobs--there should be 4. I don't have a better explanation other than it was converted from a Junior. Headed to look at it tomorrow. I live ~2 hours away, so I wanted to validate before leaving with this knowledgable group!

However, if it sounds good, I'll buy it; I just wanted to know something about it's past. The seller knows nothing about it.

 

[cerebral gasket]

From the photos provided, that husk has the features of a 1966-71 SG Junior.
Has batwing, narrow nut, unbound neck with dots.
Specials from that era had bound necks with dots.

Originally had a single soap bar P-90 at bridge.
Has been routed for two humbuckers and selector switch added.
Bridge and tuners have been replaced.
Original bridge would be a lightning bar wraparound.
Someone installed a Pigtail.
Original tuners would be 3-on-a-plate with small buttons.
Not seeing the holes from the plates though.

And the digit spacing looks odd how it is uneven.
The serial number font looks correct.

Also strange there are no holes from the three-on-a-plate tuners that are stock on these.

 

[Decadent Dan]

From the photos provided, that husk has the features of a 1966-71 SG Junior.
Has batwing, narrow nut, unbound neck.

Originally had a single soap bar P-90 at bridge.
Has been routed for two humbuckers and selector switch added.
Bridge and tuners have been replaced.
Never seen a factory logo like that on one of these.

Strange that there are no three holes from a missing short vibrola as most of those late 60's Juniors and Specials had one.

Serial number is debossed really deep for that era.
And the digit spacing looks suspicious.

Also strange there are no holes from the three-on-a-plate tuners that are stock on these.

I think I see 3 holes filled in the last photo

 

[Go Nigel Go]

With a "Player's Grade" axe like this with modifications, you should be able to get it for a "Player's Grade" price. When evaluating instruments like this, my goal would be to try it in person and see if the instrument plays well and offers you something you want. Mods can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on who did them and how they work for you. It's an instrument with some character for sure, and looks like an authentic Gibson that has been around the block a bunch of times. If this was owned by a working musician who used the heck out of it and had some specific reasons for what he/she did to it, it may be a good chance to get a nice axe and avoid the inflated collectors market. Some of the best playing guitars I have ever picked up were well worn examples like this that were modified and fine tuned over long periods of time to bring out the best in them. Some however are also simply abused, and the mods do not improve anything (or worse). If the price is good, I would schedule a visit to check it out if the mods don't scare you off immediately.

 

[Bad Penguin]

Looks like a modified melody Maker to me.

 

[cerebral gasket]

That's not a modified Melody Maker.
Melody Maker with full size headstock does not have batwing.
Melody Maker with batwing has narrow headstock without wings.
The photos indicate that it is a modified SG Junior husk.

Would like to see the back of neck joint / heel and control cavity shape.

Here's a 1970 SG Junior that I had in the past...

 

[cerebral gasket]

.

 

[PermissionToLand]

I suppose the top of the Grovers could be hiding the original holes? Otherwise I can't think of an explanation.

The heel would be helpful in narrowing down the date. https://solidguitar.fandom.com/wiki/Dating#Heel_Joints

 

[Steve D]

Gibson used to offer a service where they'd check your guitar's serial
number and tell you when and where it was made, and what it was
originally equipped with. I don't know if they still do, but it's worth looking for. Gibson serial numbers from the late sixties through the seventies are very confusing... they repeat some from other times.

This guitar looks genuine to me, checking out your pictures.
The finish and the harmonica bridge indicate a '70s instrument.
The witch hat knobs might have been original, but most '70s Gibbies
used speed knobs.

The Grover tuners look like they were factory installed (I don't see any
extra holes for Kluson gears)... The double humbuckers might have been added later as a mod. This guitar might have had a single P-90 pickup and an SG Junior pick guard... that would become obvious if you removed the P/G and looked for extra screw holes in the top
and looked carefully at the routings for the p'ups.

Others here know more than I do. They'll show up.

I am not sure, I suspect a SG Junior but I'm no expert. I will say though, Col, that the bridge is an intonatable stoptail a'la a badass bridge, not a harmonica. To my knowledge, other than that big TP-1 bridge Gibson doesn't really use that sort but they were common aftermarket swaps for the old lightning bridges so I'd guess the bridge is not original. Regarding the tuners, old Grovers made in the USA have a cylindrical case where the Grover logo is embossed. After production moved overseas it got simplified to a boxier design where the casing is flat on the upper back with the Grover logo is. So this looks like that, probably not older than around 1980ish. The guitar looks older than that to me just based on the finish checking.

Mysterious. Pot codes would be useful.

 

[Decadent Dan]

I’m guessing it has the larger control cavity since they were able to add a selector switch in what looks like the correct area.
That being the case, you should be able to add a Volume and Tone in the correct location for separate control of each pickup.

 

[MR D]

IDK, but a Semi-Educated guess would be '67 to 1971 GIBSON (?) SG Special or, more likely, a Junior....just a semi-educated guess though...

The neck w/Dot In-Lays (but no binding ?) rules out the Standard model, the single tone/volume controls suggest a Junior to me but others here on ETSG are far more into the intracacies of the older SG than I am...in '71 or '72 the cut-out bevels were non-existant so that brings me to the '67-'70/'71 time frame...

I do not like the way the digits in the serial# are somehow crooked looking......a friend at GIBSON told me the serial #'s ran sequentially on all SG's starting in 1965 starting with the 1st 3 digits being 255XXX, so if you could somehow find out or loosely figure how many were sold, total SG's all models, from '65 onwards the #'s would synch up, 255 to 609 was it ? a few years definitely......

If IF IF it has original Pots: the dates on them would help nail the year/model down a bit better than a guess. OH, and I forgot, u might not rule out that it is a Melody Maker, although IIRC those had the white buttons on the Tuning Machines...

N E way, let the crew here at ETSG know if you do get the model/yrear down.....the detectivews here are pretty damn good at this sort of thing...next best thing to the manufacturer I'd say.

How does it sound/play ?

 

[cerebral gasket]

IDK, but a Semi-Educated guess would be '67 to 1971 GIBSON (?) SG Special or, more likely, a Junior....just a semi-educated guess though...

The neck w/Dot In-Lays (but no binding ?) rules out the Standard model, the single tone/volume controls suggest a Junior to me but others here on ETSG are far more into the intracacies of the older SG than I am...in '71 or '72 the cut-out bevels were non-existant so that brings me to the '67-'70/'71 time frame...

I do not like the way the digits in the serial# are somehow crooked looking......a friend at GIBSON told me the serial #'s ran sequentially on all SG's starting in 1965 starting with the 1st 3 digits being 255XXX, so if you could somehow find out or loosely figure how many were sold, total SG's all models, from '65 onwards the #'s would synch up, 255 to 609 was it ? a few years definitely......

If IF IF it has original Pots: the dates on them would help nail the year/model down a bit better than a guess. OH, and I forgot, u might not rule out that it is a Melody Maker, although IIRC those had the white buttons on the Tuning Machines...

N E way, let the crew here at ETSG know if you do get the model/yrear down.....the detectivews here are pretty damn good at this sort of thing...next best thing to the manufacturer I'd say.

How does it sound/play ?

Not a Special because of the unbound neck and single volume and tone pots. The logo style is not consistent with any legit Gibson that I ever seen and the serial number spacing looks sketchy. Red flag there are no photos of the back of the body and neck joint. For all we know it may end up having a bolt on neck. The husk has the features of a 66-71 Junior.

The late 60's batwing Juniors are not very popular which is why people are struggling here to identify it. I had a 1970 SG Junior in the past, so this one looks very familiar to me and I can see right through all the modifications.

 

[PermissionToLand]

Not a Special because of the unbound neck and single volume and tone pots. The logo style is not consistent with any legit Gibson that I ever seen and the serial number spacing looks sketchy. Red flag there are no photos of the back of the body and neck joint. For all we know it may end up having a bolt on neck. The husk has the features of a 66-71 Junior.

The late 60's batwing Juniors are not very popular which is why people are struggling here to identify it. I had a 1970 SG Junior in the past, so this one looks very familiar to me and I can see right through all the modifications.

Y'know, I assumed the logo was just wearing away, but it actually looks like each letter was applied individually. I also don't see the wings on the sides of the headstock. It's possible the headstock broke and was replaced entirely. However, the finish checking suggests it couldn't have been done any time recently. At the least, I think the headstock face was repainted.

 

[Decadent Dan]

I’ll bet it has a baseball bat neck.

 

[cerebral gasket]

I had a 69 Special, 70 Junior, 70 Standard and they were all very thick necks with the narrow nut. I mean really thick. I’ve posted the neck with ruler at the 12th fret here about a 100 times in the past.

 

[PermissionToLand]

The truss rod cavity also doesn't look like the correct shape. It should look like this:

 

[MR D]

Not a Special because of the unbound neck and single volume and tone pots. The logo style is not consistent with any legit Gibson that I ever seen and the serial number spacing looks sketchy. Red flag there are no photos of the back of the body and neck joint. For all we know it may end up having a bolt on neck. The husk has the features of a 66-71 Junior.

The late 60's batwing Juniors are not very popular which is why people are struggling here to identify it. I had a 1970 SG Junior in the past, so this one looks very familiar to me and I can see right through all the modifications.

You are nailing it once again C.B. ......flat-out INCREDIBLE you are....I was leaning more towards the Junior and the time frame I am figuring is more or less right around where you are figuring ? ....'late '66-'71 ?

IIRC, it was you that had pointed out to me about the Dotted Necks having bindings on the earlier SG's which was an education for me at the time you mentioned it (Thank You again !)...I have to go look at Iommi's 'Monkey' SG, should have the neck binding, yes?

So, the dealio on this one is ? heavily modified ? or is it a FAKERY ? A final analysis confirmation would be the neck joint, yes? 19th Fret no doubt ? and the type of Neck Joint would have to be correct to a specific year as that did not vary from model/axe to model/axe like a finish/ # of controls/Pickups might......

One thing that jumps out at me is the serial #, it just doesn't look right.......somehow looks crooked to me. How 'bout the GIBSON logo ? Open/closed 'O' ? a DOT over the 'I' in GIBSON..... IIRC, the dot over the 'I' disappeared in 1969, for that one year ?

I figure you or one of the other Detectives here at ETSG will get to the bottom of this one, I just had to throw my $1.380 in there, Subway's late again.....