New SG ?

[plankton]

Wait, it's made in China? But everyone down at the weekend blues jam will make fun of me!

 

[laza616]

Your cons are obviously corksniffing cons. If you are so biased, why even look or comment on this thread ? Makes you feel superior ? Go buy a Gibson and leave this kind of thread alone.

Gawd ...

Out of 5 SGs i have, three of them are Epiphones..... Only one is a Gibson, the Epiphones i have are all three my top favourite guitars i have ever owned and would have never sold them.

Basically its (this new model) a Gibson with the poly finish....and we dont know if its gonna have a long tenon, but the rest is pretty much the same (apart from the hardware and headstock shape and brand on it)
So i logically compared it to the Gibson. Cons i picked are compared to the Gibson. Its not bashing on Epiphone.
We have different preferences and thats absolutely great. For you this is cornsniffing from me and thats fine, its your opinion. Maybe if you wrote down your cons and pros, i would consider your pros or cons irrelevant to me because we have different taste, preferences and experiences.
But if my comment somehow touched you and suddenly made you attacking me, thats pretty much your personal problem and YOU wrote it to feel superior. Congrats

 

[PermissionToLand]

Cons:
Made in China
Cheap hardware
No nitro finish
Second grade materials
Poorer quality check possible
For this price you can buy the used Gibson SG Tribute made in USA model or even Standard
It will not have a resale value as a real Gibson


Gibson custom co-op means its gonna be made in USA? Pickups will be made in USA or licenced chinese made Gibsons?

What exactly is "cheap" about their hardware? I've never even heard of an Epiphone bridge or tailpiece breaking. It's just molded metal. There's not much room for superiority or inferiority there.

What materials are "second grade"? This uses CTS pots and Mallory caps (something even USA Gibsons don't use). The tuners are likely made by Wilkinson who is well-regarded (I even put their tuners on my Custom Shop Gibson as an improvement over the godawful 12:1 ratio Gotohs that came on it stock).

Gibson does not license their pickups. Epiphone has ProBuckers if they wanted to go the route of nicer Chinese-made pickups. These are 100% real Burstbuckers.

You bring up a good point in your last paragraph in regards to where they will be constructed. I would assume overseas... I think a second Chinese shop with tighter QC is not feasible. Like a Chinese Eipiphone Custom shop(?). Doesn't make sense to me, would they start to build all of the custom guitars and Sheratons there too?

The serial numbers confirm these are made in the Qingdao factory.

 

[pancake81]

What exactly is "cheap" about their hardware? I've never even heard of an Epiphone bridge or tailpiece breaking. It's just molded metal. There's not much room for superiority or inferiority there.

What materials are "second grade"? This uses CTS pots and Mallory caps (something even USA Gibsons don't use). The tuners are likely made by Wilkinson who is well-regarded (I even put their tuners on my Custom Shop Gibson as an improvement over the godawful 12:1 ratio Gotohs that came on it stock).

Gibson does not license their pickups. Epiphone has ProBuckers if they wanted to go the route of nicer Chinese-made pickups. These are 100% real Burstbuckers.



The serial numbers confirm these are made in the Qingdao factory.

 

[PermissionToLand]

I just noticed, these also use a wide-bevel pickguard. Another first for Epiphone, AFAIK.

 

[Horax]

I read these DO have a long tenon. I’d love one. Either one of these or the one with the trem from last year would do

 

[PermissionToLand]

Tenons don't really work the same way in SGs that they do in LPs because the joints are designed differently between the batwing and '61 style SGs.

The whole idea with fetishizing long tenons for LPs is that it's extra contact area between the neck and body, therefore increased sustain, supposedly. But with an SG, the '61s have a long tenon to compensate for the basically non existent heel. The batwings have a big heel and small tenon. Both of those ends are places where the body meets the neck, so a large heel with have the same theoretical effect as a large tenon. If you actually calculated the total contact area, I think the long and short tenon SGs would be pretty close, in reality.

 

[laza616]

What exactly is "cheap" about their hardware? I've never even heard of an Epiphone bridge or tailpiece breaking. It's just molded metal. There's not much room for superiority or inferiority there.

What materials are "second grade"? This uses CTS pots and Mallory caps (something even USA Gibsons don't use). The tuners are likely made by Wilkinson who is well-regarded (I even put their tuners on my Custom Shop Gibson as an improvement over the godawful 12:1 ratio Gotohs that came on it stock).

Gibson does not license their pickups. Epiphone has ProBuckers if they wanted to go the route of nicer Chinese-made pickups. These are 100% real Burstbuckers.



The serial numbers confirm these are made in the Qingdao factory.

Second grade materials of woods used, its not gonna have a top notch wood as Custom shop, i didnt mean electronics
And cheap hardware in a sense that the chinese parts are generally cheap when compared to the Japanese, German or US parts used in the high end instruments.
I didnt say anything wrong about the new line and i do believe its gonna be a market changer and a very good instrument
Just the price is quite high in my eyes. I dont know, its just suddenly Epiphone is becoming more expensive. You can purchase the 61 copy off the Aliexpress without a logo for 300 and you can always swap everything in it and add a hard case and you wont end up paying 850 but you will end up having the "same" guitar . You know what i mean?

 

[Go Nigel Go]

I own 4 violins. Two are older German made "student" instruments, two are Chinese. The best and worst of the lot came from China. My first was a machine made instrument, mass produced in China and selling for less than $100 new. I bought it used for $50 to see if I wanted to pursue it further as a player. The last was also Chinese, but for $400 or so I got a bench made (largely handmade) instrument that rivals those costing maybe $1500-$2000. Materials are pretty darn good, as is the workmanship. I always judge an instrument by what it IS, not by where it comes from.

 

[PermissionToLand]

Second grade materials of woods used, its not gonna have a top notch wood as Custom shop, i didnt mean electronics
And cheap hardware in a sense that the chinese parts are generally cheap when compared to the Japanese, German or US parts used in the high end instruments.
I didnt say anything wrong about the new line and i do believe its gonna be a market changer and a very good instrument
Just the price is quite high in my eyes. I dont know, its just suddenly Epiphone is becoming more expensive.

What makes a wood second grade? Growing in Asia?

Most of the steel in the world is produced by China anyway. It's likely that Gibson is using the same raw material sources as Epiphone. Epiphone hardware is cheaper to the consumer, but of course the consumer's cost does not necessarily reflect the actual production cost. An identical plastic truss rod cover from Gibson costs more than one from Epiphone. Is that because Gibson uses some special "high quality" plastic? You see what I'm getting at? I'm not trying to be argumentative, just provoke some thought.

You may not be aware, but Epiphones have cost as much as $900-$1,000 for some time now. In fact, I just saw an old ad for the Elitist SG from 2005. That was $850 back then, which accounting for inflation would be $1,200 today. Now, those were made in Japan, so you'd expect a higher price tag, but Chinese production has come a long way since 2005, to make an understatement. High end Chinese stuff now occupies the place where high end Korean stuff used to. My 2007 Epi LP Ultra went for around $800 new as I recall. Which I believe was similar to the LP Custom at the time. It makes sense to me that the top of the line G400 would cost around the same as the nicest Epi LPs.

You can purchase the 61 copy off the Aliexpress without a logo for 300 and you can always swap everything in it and add a hard case and you wont end up paying 850 but you will end up having the "same" guitar . You know what i mean?

Oh no, that's not true at all. Have you played a counterfeit? Epiphones are built in a dedicated factory built by Gibson and managed by Americans who were trained by Gibson's engineers. Counterfeiters know nothing about the art of guitar building and could care less about quality or playability. The gap between an Epiphone and a copy is VAST.

 

[laza616]

As a matter of fact i held a counterfeit les Paul from Aliexpress in my hands before a luthier put his hands on it and after a complete work done
I must say i was impressed. We compared it to the original les paul studio and the counterfeit wasnt OFF so badly. The biggest problem was that the neck was warped a bit and it needed to ve refretted, sand down fingerboard and added new frets, levelled. There was some residue glue here and there on the finish but the electronics were good, surprisingly well soldered, i came with the generic hardware but it didnt have any logo, nothing.
After the luthier swapped pickups and all hardware, the guitar was perfect and the owner gigged with it a lot, also used it on the album recording.
It wasnt bad at all but you could see some imperfection, cosmetic one like bigger holes for the fretboard inlays so the glue around the inlay was so visible.... Or my favourite cosmetic flaw was that when you unscrewed the pickguard, there was another wrongly placed empty drilled hole..... the scale and all that was good and the guitar intonated very well with gotoh hardware, sustain was surprisingly solid too
As it was a black finish we assumed it was some plywood. It came with the hardcase with pretty nice quality actually.
Somehow everyone there assume that i am somehow prejudiced on the Chinese made guitars. But i am not
I just think that chinese products are like a russian roulette. Or maybe its only that they flooded eastern and central Europe with lower grade products and the best went to more wealthy countries and markets....

About the second grade woods.... I am getting back to the bit warped neck i mentioned above, it was because the wood was not dry and while transporting and in different temperatures a neck warped slightly. And its not the only example.
I managed to track down one former Epiphone employee from Bohemia musica Plant in Czech republic. The one who worked on these czech made epiphones. He told me they had a wood imported from south america higher grade, like the one that Gibson was importing. In asia they use different species and woods, more affordable so they can reduce the production costs.... Thats why i assume you wont get the same grade wood in affordable guitars.
Yet i have another example, i broke a generic cheap chinese bridge when it fell when i was changing strings. I bit just chipped. I am 100% it was not a proper metal made, more likely some weird low quality mixture of a metal and plastic or what. It was painted nickel and it made you think it was as good as any gotoh or schaller bridge, but it was [email protected] ..... And it was on the Vintage guitar, it wasnt even Wilkinson hardware but some generic cheap bridge. I bought a cheap bridge from a music shop and used it until i swapped it for the Gotoh. Sometimes they just wanna reduce the costs and you will get what we say in Slovak literally : "a little music for a little money"
So hopefully with this new SG as its 850 its gonna be a good quality and not some cheapskate crap in the guitar. So far the specs are looking more than promising
I will wait for the reviews and if one will be available in a shop in Slovakia i will see it in person and try it. If its gonna be a real deal i want the aged white one

 

[PermissionToLand]

We compared it to the original les paul studio and the counterfeit wasnt OFF so badly. The biggest problem was that the neck was warped a bit and it needed to ve refretted, sand down fingerboard and added new frets, levelled. There was some residue glue here and there on the finish but the electronics were good, surprisingly well soldered, i came with the generic hardware but it didnt have any logo, nothing.

Not off so bad visually, maybe. But needing the warped neck to be leveled down and refretted is about as fundamental a problem as it gets. My buddy bought a new Epi LP Special for $400 and the fretwork was excellent right out of the box.

I just think that chinese products are like a russian roulette.

They are, if you're talking about counterfeits. Epiphones are very consistent these days.

About the second grade woods.... I am getting back to the bit warped neck i mentioned above, it was because the wood was not dry and while transporting and in different temperatures a neck warped slightly. And its not the only example.

Right, and that's exactly why Epiphones are better; Gibson knows how to properly dry and handle wood. They aren't just leaving the Epiphone factory on its own. Heck, the factory manager worked at Gibson for years before taking over the Epiphone factory.

I managed to track down one former Epiphone employee from Bohemia musica Plant in Czech republic. The one who worked on these czech made epiphones. He told me they had a wood imported from south america higher grade, like the one that Gibson was importing.

There were slight differences with the Bohemia Epiphones, but woods were not one of the differences:

http://www.epiphonewiki.org/index/Bohemia_Musico-Delicia.php

You can tell just by looking at it that they were not using Honduran Mahogany:

In asia they use different species and woods, more affordable so they can reduce the production costs.... Thats why i assume you wont get the same grade wood in affordable guitars.

Why do you think it costs less? Trees don't have inherent value. It takes the same amount of labor to cut down a tree in Asia as it does in South America. There is no magic properties to the wood of South America. The only reason certain wood strains are more expensive is because people get nostalgic for what was used in the past, supply gets depleted and demand goes up. Ted McCarty said himself that Gibson only used Honduran Mahogany because it was easy to work with and easy to get back then.

"So why the change to all-mahogany [for the LP Custom]? For sound?

We liked mahogany. It was an excellent wood to work with. We used a lot of it in necks for our lower-priced guitars, instead of maple and rosewood."

https://reverb.com/news/former-gibs...oods-and-the-problems-of-top-heavy-management

 

[laza616]

Actually there are few things on the epiphone wiki that are not correct. The "x" pickups - these were made in the factory in Czech republic right there in Bohemia musica, according to the guy who built these guitars, they had parts directly from Gibson, the same as they had a truss rod and the X pickups are copies of Gibson 57 classics made off the gibson parts and from the manual from the Gibson. I had mine checked and the values were on the spot, but as i dont have 57s in my guitars before and neither did my luthier we couldnt compare the sound directly.
They didnt use grain filler on their guitars, many guitars are made of Ash or Basswood too. Interesting thing was that the fretboard inlays came all the way from Japan and all the hardware was made for the Bohemian Epis in Germany at the Schaller factory

Yes i agree, warped neck is a problem AF and it took a lot of work to get it right, it only shows that they dont mind in China that much

I know the recent Epiphones are very good and i dont doubt that they improved by a lot, but the difference you have and we have here is that they ship the guitars to all over the world and in US in Guitar centre or shops like that, they do they own inspection, here in Slovakia they just sell it as it was delivered..... So most likely for me it means i have to be very picky when buying an Asian made instruments.
Thats why its completely normal when you go to the shop, say that you want the Epiphone G400 standard and they go back, bring you one in the box, you open the box and the guitar has its neck headstock snapped off almost fully....this happened like 3 months ago to my friend in the biggest slovak music shop ,....i say, russian roulette.....

 

[dub-setter]

back to topic:
like the aged white one...

 

[PermissionToLand]

The "x" pickups - these were made in the factory in Czech republic right there in Bohemia musica, according to the guy who built these guitars, they had parts directly from Gibson, the same as they had a truss rod and the X pickups are copies of Gibson 57 classics made off the gibson parts and from the manual from the Gibson.

Is this the same guy who told you they used South American wood? Look, people take pride in their work so much that sometimes they invent reasons why their stuff stood out from the rest. But let's think about this logically; the Bohemia plant was short lived because they couldn't compete with the cheap labor of Asia, right? So would it make sense that they used even more expensive parts than the Chinese factories? Or that, if anything, they would seek to cut materials costs because their labor costs were already higher? Remember, the Bohemia Epiphones were not a separate line like the Japanese made Elitist Series; they were just regular LP Standards sold for the same price as a Chinese made one.

And again, Gibson does not license their pickups.

the difference you have and we have here is that they ship the guitars to all over the world and in US in Guitar centre or shops like that, they do they own inspection, here in Slovakia they just sell it as it was delivered.

Guitar Center does not inspect their guitars, trust me.

Thats why its completely normal when you go to the shop, say that you want the Epiphone G400 standard and they go back, bring you one in the box, you open the box and the guitar has its neck headstock snapped off almost fully....this happened like 3 months ago to my friend in the biggest slovak music shop

That is not a quality issue, that's a shipping issue. It happens all the time in every country, even with expensive Gibsons.

 

[laza616]

This leads nowhere. I am talking from my personal experience or my close friends guitar player friends, i have bohemian SG epi and i spoke with the luthier from the company who worked there from 80s when they were making harmonicas ,violins or whatever and worked there after they stopped doing guitars for Epiphone. The plant wasnt that short lived. It was from 96 until 03.
On the other hand, do you have personal experience with the Czech made Epiphones, do you have one? I am from Slovakia i know how it works here we have been Czechoslovakia with Czech republic, i was born to Czechoslovakia.
And also on the other hand you just speculate.
Its pointless to continue because whenever i say something first hand, you "logically" try to debunk it.
Anyway, bees also doesnt waste their time explaining flies why honey is better than sh*t.
I am out of this sorry

 

[smitty_p]

What exactly is "cheap" about their hardware?

Going the opposite direction of your question, one thing I definitely prefer about Epiphone (and other non-US guitars) hardware is the bridge posts. I’ve had guitars with the large 8 x 1.25 posts and I like those better. My ‘74 SG has them, as well, as it originally had the much-maligned Schaller harmonica bridge.

 

[everdying]

laza616 is about half right...
the wood is definitely imported, but i wouldn't say its Honduran mahogany...especially at their prices.
logically it would most likely be African mahogany, just like what the epiphone elitists used.

the czech hardware definitely is from Schaller... which includes the pickups.

the czech models sounds like they were a step up from the then korean models... plus they weren't meant for worldwide distribution anyway.

but saying they're in another league compared to the MIK / MIC? nah...
maybe to quantity it i would say 20% better?

just like how i think MIJ epiphones aren't that much better than the MIK...maybe another 20%...
and this is from once having an "Orville by Gibson" from 1989...the ones with Gibson HB-R / HB-L pickups.

 

[everdying]

Going the opposite direction of your question, one thing I definitely prefer about Epiphone (and other non-US guitars) hardware is the bridge posts. I’ve had guitars with the large 8 x 1.25 posts and I like those better. My ‘74 SG has them, as well, as it originally had the much-maligned Schaller harmonica bridge.

i love the harmonica bridge, so easy to palm mute on them...

 

[PermissionToLand]

laza616 is about half right...
the wood is definitely imported, but i wouldn't say its Honduran mahogany...especially at their prices.
logically it would most likely be African mahogany, just like what the epiphone elitists used.

the czech hardware definitely is from Schaller... which includes the pickups.

the czech models sounds like they were a step up from the then korean models... plus they weren't meant for worldwide distribution anyway.

but saying they're in another league compared to the MIK / MIC? nah...
maybe to quantity it i would say 20% better?

just like how i think MIJ epiphones aren't that much better than the MIK...maybe another 20%...
and this is from once having an "Orville by Gibson" from 1989...the ones with Gibson HB-R / HB-L pickups.

You can tell just by looking at it that it's not African Mahogany either. African Mahogany is stripey. It's what they use for veneers on the new G400s and that's why it's so obvious they have veneers by contrast with the Eastern Mahogany below, exposed by the bevels.