Political Correctness

[antisocial]

When is this stupid politcal correctness faze gonna end? Im sick of everybody tiptoeing across every person or topic just so noone gets offended. Its killing this country. If im an asshole then call me an asshole. Not a rectally challenged person. Politically correct should be what the politicians are supposed to be. Honest and actually trying to do the best for the people they represent. Not how much money they can fill their pockets with. And don't get me started on "the war on drugs". Well that's my two cents for now.

 

[Zeppelin Rules]

People certainly take it too far, but I would argue that the push towards political correctness has helped make society more equitable.

Language is an immensely powerful tool, and many mechanisms of marginalization and degradation are built into language.

 

[TNT]

In older days you pretty much knew where you stood with people and vice versa. You can see that quality in older people. Whether you liked them or not you could tell what they're about in a few minutes. Political correctness is just going the long way around the barn instead of making a point like a salesman does. I prefer people to make their point and get it over with than to tap dance around it. YMMV.

 

[Voxman]

I see it as a ban on free speech!

 

[Kevy Nova]

[quote author=TNT link=topic=21462.msg257614#msg257614 date=1299428633]
In older days you pretty much knew where you stood with people and vice versa. You can see that quality in older people. Whether you liked them or not you could tell what they're about in a few minutes. Political correctness is just going the long way around the barn instead of making a point like a salesman does. I prefer people to make their point and get it over with than to tap dance around it. YMMV.
[/quote]

I agree. If someone is a bigot or racist, I want to know right up front so that I can avoid them. I think groups like the KKK should be allowed to have all the parades they want, just as long as they don't wear their masks.

 

[Spunky]

[quote author=Voxman link=topic=21462.msg257617#msg257617 date=1299432133]
I see it as a ban on free speech!
[/quote]

I agree 100%

 

[dbb]

Wow, I agree with BOTH Kevy and Spunky....political correctness is another shortcut past thinking. It is really a form of censorship of the mind.

I would rather deal with honesty than false "politeness" ; however Like Zep I do prefer a civil society, but not at the expense of true verbal freedom.

Free speech anyone - it also means speech you do not like.

 

[Zeppelin Rules]

I just think that in terms of racist terms (leaving out all other forms of PC for a second) if we don't put constraints on them, it's basically the same thing as condoning them. Ultimately, to me, that's what PC does; its a way of taking a stand and saying that it's not okay to use this offensive language because of all the acts, and ideas of hatred that go with it.

Ultimately though, I'm Canadian, and since we don't have free speech enshrined in our legal system, I guess I have a different take on it.

 

[Spunky]

[quote author=Zeppelin Rules link=topic=21462.msg257635#msg257635 date=1299462205]
I just think that in terms of racist terms (leaving out all other forms of PC for a second) if we don't put constraints on them, it's basically the same thing as condoning them. Ultimately, to me, that's what PC does; its a way of taking a stand and saying that it's not okay to use this offensive language because of all the acts, and ideas of hatred that go with it.

Ultimately though, I'm Canadian, and since we don't have free speech enshrined in our legal system, I guess I have a different take on it.
[/quote]

I understand your point of view but once we leave reality for Political Correctness, we are forcing civility on people who don't want it and taking away the right to be Politically Incorrect from those that would never use it. I believe PC is the first step to Multiculturalism and that is a very bad direction.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SReDcW0fokE&feature=channel_video_title[/youtube]

 

[oldrockfan]

I am torn on the issue of free speech. On the one hand, I do support the right of all people to have freedoms but the key is provided their individual freedoms don't come at the cost of others freedoms or the ideals of the country they reside in. There are some expressions of "free speech" that are so offensive to me that I struggle to accept them. For example, when I see someone burn a US flag... the symbol of all our country holds dear...well it takes everything I have in me to fight the urge to beat some sense into them. Same thing goes for folks that dis-respect our military men and women... that is something that i don't think I could just sit back and watch without getting involved. I am old enough to remember seeing vietnam as it unfolded and have to say seeing those people spitting on our soldiers as they came off the planes... made my blood boil to watch it.

I am all for free speech but with some limits.

 

[Spunky]

[quote author=oldrockfan link=topic=21462.msg257641#msg257641 date=1299466732]
I am torn on the issue of free speech. On the one hand, I do support the right of all people to have freedoms but the key is provided their individual freedoms don't come at the cost of others freedoms or the ideals of the country they reside in. There are some expressions of "free speech" that are so offensive to me that I struggle to accept them. For example, when I see someone burn a US flag... the symbol of all our country holds dear...well it takes everything I have in me to fight the urge to beat some sense into them. Same thing goes for folks that dis-respect our military men and women... that is something that i don't think I could just sit back and watch without getting involved. I am old enough to remember seeing vietnam as it unfolded and have to say seeing those people spitting on our soldiers as they came off the planes... made my blood boil to watch it.

I am all for free speech but with some limits.
[/quote]

In the USA we already have restrictions on free speech. You cannot yell fire in a crowded theatre when there isn't any fire.
We have rules to protect each other from physical harm from speech. Also there are liable laws if you make accusations against someone that are unfounded.
It is the unfortunate reality that those people from the Westboro Baptist Church can protest at soldier's funerals but that also gives us the right to speak out against Islam or any other subject that offends us without fear of retribution.
You cannot ever feel the glory of victory without being able to feel the agony of defeat. With free speech also comes the ugly speech. It is a 2 edged sword that cuts both ways. in order that free speech remain free, we cannot limit it in the name of Political Correctness as that is just another way to sensor us and eliminate freedom. When free speech no longer exists so will freedom vanish.
In the UK, the only free speech is given to hate monger Imams such as Anjen Choudary while any non-Muslim that dare utter any words that upsets a Muslim is automatically placed in the category of hate speech. This is what happens when you lose free speech. The speech is only free for one side but not the other.

It is up to society to enforce moral guidelines in these matters. A car belonging to the Westboro Baptist Church had it's tires slashed and no one or business in the town would help them. This is local censorship and is effective. Legislating speech is both impossible to do effectively and it also leads to zero tolerance which ignores the circumstances.
I too am appalled at some of the things I hear. Burning a US flag is a crime and not free speech. There are proper ways to dispose of a US flag and burning is a Federal crime. Of course the problem with laws is that they are useless unless enforced. But then that is another topic.

 

[dbb]

[quote author=oldrockfan link=topic=21462.msg257641#msg257641 date=1299466732]
There are some expressions of "free speech" that are so offensive to me that I struggle to accept them. For example, when I see someone burn a US flag... the symbol of all our country holds dear...well it takes everything I have in me to fight the urge to beat some sense into them. ......
I am all for free speech but with some limits.
[/quote]

I get what you mean, but free speech means just that, free. Even to say or do what is offensive to others.

Now, I personally do NOT see the flag as a sacred symbol of the US, it's just a battle banner to me, useful for symbolic purposes and a a rallying point, but not so special that a protester can't burn it if he wants, however pointless this has been since 1966.

I understand that this gets many people mad....but that freedom is what our servicepersons have fought for. Even the freedom to be silly and politically foolish.

Sorry to disagree - either ALL speech is free or we have censorship.

 

[oldrockfan]

hey dbb no need to say sorry, I enjoy reading other points of view on political topics and never take anything personal. My views are just that... mine and no worries if they don't mesh up with others here. Heck, I try hard to learn new stuff every day so reading other views from you, spunk, kevy, voxy, zep, and the rest of the usual guys on political stuff around here is something I really enjoy doing. On occasion we might get a little heated up on a subject but hopefully we all realize we are just guys who have a common love for guitars but our political views are quite different which is ok. We can all share our thoughts on a variety of topics without getting too emoitional about them. Sure there may be an occasional temporary frustration here and there but nothing worse than that.

That is what makes this forum so much better than the majority of the music forums out there. We can disagree without constantly blowing up at each other.
Keep On Rockin!

 

[dbb]

Thanks for the note of civility, orf!

I have always made it clear that I am a leftover "lefty" hippy type....but I do not agree with the so-called leftist agenda. I'm too much or a libertarian and believe in the Constitution and Bill of rights.
That's why I like to read other's opinions...maybe I can learn something.

I used to say that when the radical left and radical right realize how much we have in common, then we can really do some good.

As for the flag, I always valued the country and the concept of freedom more than the mere fabric of the flag itself. To me, that's what America is about, real freedom.

 

[Spunky]

I don't know about the younger guys on here but I think orf is old enough to be part of the Baby Boomer generation.
I had a guy on another forum going on and on about how the Baby Boomer generation wrecked the USA while we had sex and smoked dope and didn't give a rat's A$$ about the USA and we are responsible for the current problems.
I tried to make him understand that the Baby Boomers were just coming into their own in the political arena and the hippy peace freaks that went Anarchist and Alinsky were the ones educating the kids. The Patriots and ex soldiers were too busy working and raising family's and paying mortgage and were just getting ready to do the a$$ whooping that needs to be done here. The silent majority is raising it's head and going to make the minority and special interest groups STFU.
The problem was that he was raised as a entitlement baby in generation X and Y and expected others to wipe their butts for them. He just kept sniveling and blaming everyone else but himself for his situation.

Politics aside...it is up to the individual to define him or herself and do the best they can. Blaming your situation on others removes your ability to take charge and make a change because you are dependent on the ones that put you there to make that change. We are responsible for our own happiness and we cannot expect others to do this for us.
Could you imagine if your happiness was defined by someone else? I can just imagine someone telling me I should be happy living the life of an Amish or some other lifestyle that you don't want.

I see an awful lot of socialist youngsters out there. I can't understand how they think that system will work in the USA after it failed everywhere else it was forced onto the people. The problem is that they are now indoctrinated by community organizers in the Alinsky Anarchy methods to force the majority into compliance. Unfortunately there are a few old skool Alpha males left and when they run into one, lord help them because it isn't going to go well for them.
Stand in my office and yell and scream until I give in...NOT..I'll unload the pepper spray, stun gun, liquid A$$ and then start the This is Sparta routine if they want to try that on me.

 

[dbb]

[quote author=Spunky link=topic=21462.msg257656#msg257656 date=1299530189]

I see an awful lot of socialist youngsters out there. I can't understand how they think that system will work in the USA after it failed everywhere else it was forced onto the people


[/quote]

Spunky, have you been to Northern Europe? they have socialism in various forms and these countries work fine; what failed socialist states are you referring to?

 

[antisocial]

Wow, I didnt think I would get alot of feedback but you guys are great. It's what keeps America free. I think if we censor what people say then what's next? It's a slippery slope. This country was founded on principles that we weren't allowed to have before our revolution. As bad as some people see them it is what the other parts of the world wish they had. Other countries dont hate us because of what we got. They hate us because of what they don't have. That's why there is alot of revolution going on around the world now. People see America and want the freedom we have. Too bad alot of us don't see the freedom we are slowly losing through political deals and back door agreements from our so called politicians. Maybe some day we might need another revolution too. I surley hope not though.

 

[dbb]

[quote author=antisocial link=topic=21462.msg257659#msg257659 date=1299534480]
Too bad alot of us don't see the freedom we are slowly losing through political deals and back door agreements from our so called politicians.
[/quote]

People are waking up...slowly.

 

[Zeppelin Rules]

[quote author=dbb link=topic=21462.msg257657#msg257657 date=1299531124]
Spunky, have you been to Northern Europe? they have socialism in various forms and these countries work fine; what failed socialist states are you referring to?
[/quote]


Hell, you could argue that Canada is pretty socialist, and we're not doing too badly.

I think there's a difference between socialism and communism, and most people who criticize them don't realize that communism as we've seen it implemented in the world is a far cry from what Marx envisioned when he wrote the book in the late 19th century.

 

[Zeppelin Rules]

[quote author=dbb link=topic=21462.msg257648#msg257648 date=1299517812]

I understand that this gets many people mad....but that freedom is what our servicepersons have fought for. Even the freedom to be silly and politically foolish.

Sorry to disagree - either ALL speech is free or we have censorship.
[/quote]

Sorry, I just felt the need to point out the irony of that term given the thread's topic ;D