SG neck dive solution

Relic61

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You mention "pretentious" numerous times in your post. Wearing cool clothes or shades is not pretentious in anyway. Elvis wore cool suits in his hep-cat early days. Led Zep wore blue jeans. Hendrix always wore a cool headband. Why do you consider that pretentious?

I never liked KISS at all, but I was never bothered by their make up. You seem to miss the fact that rock and roll is not education; it's not a part of the medical field; it's not a military branch. It's entertainment! Yes, it is art, but art should also entertain in order to reach a wider audience.

A part of rock and roll is show business. Whatever per centage one wants to put on that is up to them. But you seem to feel 0% of rock and roll is entertainment/show business. That's absurd. Even Dylan strapped on a super cool futuristic looking Stratocaster and went electric.
Hey, don't read too much into it. I'm kind of being existential about it & at the same time, just trying to be entertaining & thought provoking. Just try to smile & enjoy the ride buddy.
Just like clown suits are part of the show, that's exactly what we're getting right here.. but with words. C'mon man. There were a couple of gems that had to make you laugh in that last post eh?? Hey.. where did the smiley face emoji's go man?? wtf??:rofl:
Whew! Found it!

That said, here is a big difference between this Elvis..
1647834801155.png

And fat clown suit Elvis..
1647834874381.png

Could there have been a clown-show Elvis without the talented good looking (& rather normally dressed) Elvis coming first?
Of course not, but lots of people want to jump right into the rockstar / dress up / go out & 'pretend' before they achieve the level of talent & skill required to be truly impressive.

& I'm pretty sure in the beginning Led Zeppelin dressed exactly like they wanted too & felt like dressing! That was real to them, not dress up! OK, Percy did get a little too 'silly girl' carried away looking for me that came after some success. Although today this wouldn't raise an eyebrow.. But back in the 70's.. he looked pretty damn silly bra. And that's why his own mates called him frik'n Percy in the first place!
1647835220195.png

My point is you don't need to copy (aka be a poser) & play dress up to make great music! Learn & master your fvking instrument & impress me people! That is exactly what is being lost today! If you want to dress up & entertain people then consider joining the circus & don a clown suit. or maybe get a Fat Elvis gig on the strip somewhere.

Where are the serious / talented / impressive / inspirational guitar players today?? Gone?? Dying off?? (RIP Eddie) But how many half-asser un-practiced pretentious wanna-be's are out there 'playing' rock star?
How many people do you personally know that can really dig into the guitar & make you feel something??
Playing rockstar & dress up has become more important than actually being an accomplished musician! and that my friend is bass ackward!

I've seen this more & more as I've gotten older. Devotion to mastering your instrument is forgotten as soon as people can play enough to fake their way through some songs, put on their clown show outfit of choice, book a gig & play fvking rockstar for the night. It's disgusting & frik'n sad when you realize it is real man.

When I was younger, almost everybody was capable of playing some kind of instrument. Some were better than others & some were more serious than others. Now, it is almost impossible to put together a really talented band that has any chance of sticking together long enough to achieve anything.

Practice, being prepared & developing virtuosity is an old school novelty that nobody seems to have the desire or time for anymore.

So in closing I will simply ask this question. Which is more important.. the music.. or the dress up? Do you need to dress-up in a clown outfit to play music? Do you need to be able to play music to wear a clown suit?? The answer is NO! & wtf??.. I'm not sure but I think the right answer is NO!

I think talent, ability, dedication & mastery of the craft has to come before the clown show starts. Look at the examples you posted above. They didn't start out looking like a clown show did they? If anything I think they represented the typical styles of their time, social status & society in which they lived.

I think one of the most important things I can do here is advocate for the importance of having a true devotion to trying to play to the best of each of our ability through practicing, learning & practicing some more! Anybody can dress up, but how many people can really play the fvking guitar with mastery? Like my best buddy's older brother always told me with a grin after every band practice in their basement when I was a teenager, "Keep practicing kid!"

& just like I told my sisters.. Zepplin Rules & KISS fvkin Svks! Then I'd knock their dolls on the floor & run out of the room while they yelled & screamed..
 

chilipeppermaniac

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HAHA OK NMA, and Relic,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Who was the first of you to wear Assless Chaps after your first Van Halen concert ?

1647863833967.png
 

Relic61

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NMA

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Hey, don't read too much into it.

.

A few things:

1. You mention Eddie as being a paragon of discipline and mastering his instrument. Uhh, are you aware that Eddie did this to his instrument strictly for the show? Or do you think stripes are important to improve one's playing of 9th chords?

1647880800239.png

2. You keep mentioning mastering one's instrument. I say hogwash to that. Joe Strummer of The Clash was a rudimentary player. He could play some basic chords and that's it. Guess what? The Clash were a brilliant band, his songs are legendary ("London Calling" is iconic and yet it is guitar playing at its most basic). My guitar hero is also John Lennon. You really think he was a virtuoso on guitar? Mastering one's instrument is not the goal of some serious musicians, you know. Just playing it and expressing oneself as best as one can is.

3. Yeah, I imagine it is harder these days to get a band going. What that has to do with this conversation about showmanship I can't figure out. But, yeah, the days of garage bands sure ain't what they used to be. Thirty years ago I would play with numerous guys around our town. Every jam session there was a new player involved. It was cool. Nowadays, yeah, you may be right, that ain't happening.

4. One final thing, you seem to associate "dressing up" with a lack of ability. Once again I present Hendrix.

1647881335652.png
 

Relic61

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A few things:

1. You mention Eddie as being a paragon of discipline and mastering his instrument. Uhh, are you aware that Eddie did this to his instrument strictly for the show? Or do you think stripes are important to improve one's playing of 9th chords?

View attachment 47601

2. You keep mentioning mastering one's instrument. I say hogwash to that. Joe Strummer of The Clash was a rudimentary player. He could play some basic chords and that's it. Guess what? The Clash were a brilliant band, his songs are legendary ("London Calling" is iconic and yet it is guitar playing at its most basic). My guitar hero is also John Lennon. You really think he was a virtuoso on guitar? Mastering one's instrument is not the goal of some serious musicians, you know. Just playing it and expressing oneself as best as one can is.

3. Yeah, I imagine it is harder these days to get a band going. What that has to do with this conversation about showmanship I can't figure out. But, yeah, the days of garage bands sure ain't what they used to be. Thirty years ago I would play with numerous guys around our town. Every jam session there was a new player involved. It was cool. Nowadays, yeah, you may be right, that ain't happening.

4. One final thing, you seem to associate "dressing up" with a lack of ability. Once again I present Hendrix.

View attachment 47602
I just dislike half-ass posers bro! Hendrix was not a phony poser! He was real, he was unique. Eddie was not a poser! He was a talented musician. People pretend (pose) to be these guys now!

Posing & playing 'Rockstar' just doesn't command the same respect from me as a musician that plays with genuine talent & skill.
The Clash might have 'seemed' simple but they had talent & true musical ability & made some great fucking music. How many unpracticed posers can even do that today? Most posers today just suck in an overtly generally sucking kind of way! Hear that sucking sound??? That's talent & skill leaving the room right there.

All I'm really saying is bring out the talent! Put effort into playing well. Anybody can dress up but not everyone can play with meaningful / useful proficiency & there are many reasons for that. But perhaps the most disgusting for me is sheer gotdang laziness & lack of effort. It's hard to play well vs easy to pretend & play dress up.

Like I've said, I've met so many half-assers over the last 20 years that this reality has smacked me in the face & I can no longer pretend it isn't real! And obviously you have admitted as much yourself with your personal experience you conveyed above. So you know I'm not just talkin out my ass or making **** up here.

Todays malady seems to be no pride & enjoyment in playing well & no desire or dedication to being proficient. Yes we have some good players but that's just not what I'm coming across in any large number in real life anymore like it used to be! The world has changed. People want **** now!!! without the hard work & effort,.

It's the lazy-boy app generation man. And the musical world is worse off & suffering for it.

So forgive me my bluntness when I kick off some thought provoking conversation by saying 'Keep Practicing Kids'! or More Practicing & Less Posing!

Those that 'get this' & do something about it (like practice, learn & practice some more) can thank me later for it.
 

NMA

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I'Keep Practicing Kids'! or More Practicing & Less Posing!

Those that 'get this' & do something about it (like practice, learn & practice some more) can thank me later for it.

Uhh, you really have no idea what music is all about - particularly rock and roll.

You keep stressing that "practice" is the most important thing about making music rather than, get this, life experiences.

Go ahead. Practice your mixolydian scale twenty hours a day. I'd rather hear music from a person that's lived an interesting life, that's experienced societal woes and pleasures first hand. But you would rather listen to music from a guy who is an expert at mixolydian scales. I'd say life's experiences make the artist, not being a wizard on Dorian minor 7th with a suspended fourth scales.
 

Relic61

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Uhh, you really have no idea what music is all about - particularly rock and roll.

You keep stressing that "practice" is the most important thing about making music rather than, get this, life experiences.

Go ahead. Practice your mixolydian scale twenty hours a day. I'd rather hear music from a person that's lived an interesting life, that's experienced societal woes and pleasures first hand. But you would rather listen to music from a guy who is an expert at mixolydian scales. I'd say life's experiences make the artist, not being a wizard on Dorian minor 7th with a suspended fourth scales.

Uhh, you really have no idea what music is all about - particularly rock and roll.
That is really ignorant of you to try to say that don't ya think? Now yer sounding BUTTHURT bro!
I haven't insulted you but you've certainly opened up the door for me to speak my mind freely. Glass houses & stuff like that ya know?..

I'll start off lightly with asking.. Who said anything about practicing mixolidian scales? I am saying just 'practice' muth'r fvk'r! Show up being able to play & perform your best & not simply go out to POSE & PRETEND you're a fvking Rock-star! So tired of that crap!

And now, I'll add.. just dumping money on matching your damn gear up in complementary colors or whatever TF that $#it is doesn't cut it or mean $#it to me either!. It impresses me not!
If that's what gets you off then fine. Good for you. Match away Martha Stewart. You enjoy all that $#it while I call you... a poser! Maybe an obsessive compulsive poser even, that doesn't practice! (gasp)
Own That $#it

Offended yet? No? Good! You shouldn't be offended. You've worked hard at this & spent a lot of money to LOOK this way. Be proud of what you are. Poser proud, poser strong! If you have conviction & are into it then these words should not bother you a bit. But if they do, then obviously inside you know there is truth to what I'm pointing out here & you're on the wrong side of the argument.
My opinion is Proficiency trumps Posing every time.

Impress me with your musical ability, not your look, outfit, haircut or matching amp / guitar / chord combo! even matching pick & capos! Holy fvk man, that's really fvkin silly ass $#it to me & it tells me more than you realize.

You also obviously have no idea about me, what I've done, how I was schooled, or how long I've been a paid musician, never mind who I am, my actual musical abilities or my subsequent life experiences... & that means YOU consequentially are coming across to me like you are simply talking out your butt-hurt ass & pontificating as a star struck wanna be or at best a novice player & not so much as a serious / accomplished musician, and that's fine too.

We all have the right to our unique perspectives & opinion don't we? I know lots of guys that idolize & imitate. Some take the time to get good & others don't ever put in the effort practicing. Sounds like you are in the 2nd camp.

I've never had one seriously accomplished pro musician or teacher (& that's going back some years) EVER tell me not to practice or encourage me not be the best I can be by being persistent, devoted & always trying to improve through effort, dedication & practicing! So this makes you pretty unique in your color coded position saying all that isn't important.

Nobody ever said to me just dress up cool & have a good time!, forget that practicing crap They all said to practice, practice, practice! And practice some more! And I've learned first hand that they were right! That is if you want to be really good & not a hack.
Maybe you've never had a mentor or teacher or went to musical school / training? IDK but I'm sure that if you did, they all would have told you to fvking PRACTICE!

Now, I am sadly persuaded by your reaction to this into thinking you actually resent the idea of practicing & developing ones best ability through hard work & effort.! Although that is just silly & ignorant to me if that is the case well then so be it, that is on you my friend. That's your level of effort & I'm sure you sound accordingly when (if) you play.

Your negative reaction actually betrays you & indicates a lack of real life professional experience & success. And that's fine too. We all have the right to our opinion. We don't need to know wtf we are talking about to post here. And you don't need to be a good player to buy matching gear, you just need money!

A poser is a poser is a fvkin poser!
Somebody should be able to tell the posers out there not only that they ARE posers.. but that they suck & should really practice more! I'm not going to say you personally suck, but your response tells me you just might not be into practicing & that would infer that there may be some things to de desired as far as your state of musical 'proficiency' especially since that word really seemed to bother you too. & maybeeee.. just maybe.. that's why you have issue with me & feel offended by my stressing someone developing their abilities through effort, dedication & practicing.
Why else would someone have issue with this standard established procedure for developing ones talent?

Frankly, I'm tired of half assers with silly ideas making excuses & telling me about music &, talking out their backsides about practicing & being prepared not being important. Even more so when they are lacking the skills to perform well & pull their own weight musically in a working band. BS excuses for laziness & lack of effort. Save all that, it don't wash! Practice & show up prepared you lazy bitches & quit wasting everyone else's time!

I never bought one record in my life because somebody's amp matched their guitar or they dressed-up in some costume. But I've certainly bought plenty because I simply liked / loved the damn music!

Poser vs Player.
Be a Player, Don't be a poser.
Be true to yourself, be real & bring it.
Make your guitar sing & the music move us!
Practice, learn, practice, repeat!
Kick some Rock n Roll ass!
but please.. don't be just a poser
 

NMA

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1. I'll add.. just dumping money on matching your damn gear up in complementary colors or whatever TF that $#it is doesn't cut it or mean $#it to me either!. It impresses me not!
If that's what gets you off then fine. Good for you. Match away Martha Stewart. Y

2. Impress me with your musical ability,

3. I've never had one seriously accomplished pro musician or teacher (& that's going back some years) EVER tell me not to practice or encourage me not be the best I can be by being persistent, devoted & always trying to improve through effort, dedication & practicing! So this makes you pretty unique in your color coded position saying all that isn't important.

4. Nobody ever said to me just dress up cool & have a good time!,

1. I already have a white guitar strap, a white capo, white guitar picks, a white coil cable, and a Gretsch White Falcon. I am now looking for a white amp. Man, that will complete the picture and be perfect.

2. Uhh, suppose my musical ability is not on the level of Steve Vai? I guess you feel those of us lower than Steve Vai should just not play. I impress nobody with my musical ability. You feel I am worthless, shouldn't be playing guitar. Got it. (Ever think I love music and love making whatever racket I make? You have no concept of love of music. Love of expressing oneself. Nope you feel we all should master our mixolydian scales and then we can make music.)

3. Once again, practice isn't important. Playing and enjoying yourself and having an "up yours, I'll play as I play" attitude is the basic building blocks of rock and roll. You should be a member in a symphonic orchestra. They practice non-stop. That's for you. This rock and roll stuff...not for you at all. Leave rock and roll to us free-spirited rockers who love rocking and rolling even though we can't play one note on the mixolydian scale.

4. I actually feel very sad for you when you say, "Nobody ever said to me just dress up cool & have a good time." That is the very definition of rock and roll. Dress up cool and have a good time! No mixolydian scale mastery required. Just rock and roll. Have a good time. Do you have a good time practicing 23 hours of the day? I bet you don't. But me and my fellow rockers always have a good time. We do what we want, wear what we want, play what we want. We are free. We rock!
 

skelt101

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It's hard to believe this thread was originally about finding a solution to the dreaded "neck dive"...:confused:
 
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NMA

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It's hard to believe this thread was originally about finding a solution to the dreaded "neck dive"...:confused:

Aren't you aware that SG neck-dive is the most contentious topic in music history? Yoko Ono breaking up The Beatles is a more friendly topic than SG neck-dive.
 

NMA

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You know I have a VOX AC30 like the one pictured, and I have to tell you, the SG does not sound its best in that amp. In fact, the SG sounds pretty lousy in that amp.

VOX amps were built for single coil guitars...humbuckers need not apply. Sister Rosetta should have been steered to another amp. She might have been a big star instead of an little known cult figure.
 

deMelo

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Dude, I bookmarked this thread so I can read it over some coffee after dinner. 17 pages of neck dive debate…
 

deMelo

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Ok, having read all (or at least most) of this, I'll bite.

1 - I've owned 3 SGs. An Epi G400, which had those Grover kidneys (this one dove a lot. If I took my fretting hand off, it's headstock would sink right down); two Gibson '61RIs, which had snot-colored Klusons and didn't neckdive much. At first I found that a bit odd about SGs but I didn't really stop to think about it for a long time, you know?

2 - I never paid much attention to that fact, because I was kinda busy playing the damned guitars. Plus, ever since I evolved from being a bedside sitter and started playing electric guitars attached to me by a strap while standing up, I paid attention not to simply let go of the guitar because you know, strap buttons do slip off strap holes. Les Pauls especially. Even strats, which seem to be the most stable of all electrics in that department do slip off and might fall. Not only once I was playing out and an otherwise secure strap just slipped off and I found myself holding the guitar in order not to let it fall and crash. You don't always have strap locks at hand, ans some guitars don't fit the cases with them, so you gotta learn how to play the guitar without letting it fall down.

It's not rocket science. Damn, I used to be a classical player and if you just let go of a classical guitar it might fall from your leg, we all lived well with that fact back then... But hey, last I've heard was that classical players were inventing all kinds of stuff to keep the guitars in place so playing gets more... ergonomic. I wonder if Manitas de Plata, Tárrega or Segovia ever felt they needed this.

3 - As for dressing cool, I couldn't care less if a musician dresses up like a clown or if he wears blue Levi's and a Walmart white tee. I want to listen to the music. Me, I dress how I want to, regardless of what the .... everyone will think. I wear mostly the "Blue Levi's, white or black tee and Chuck Taylors or Cowboy boots. Sometimes I throw a tailored vest or wear a bandana in my pocket but that's about it (plus the bandana is for wiping sweat or tieing something if needed, I don't wear it as a style item). I worry about my playing and making the audience dance and cheer, not looking cool.

Keep fighting.
 
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DrBGood

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Ok, having read all (or at least most) of this, I'll bite.

1 - I've owned 3 SGs. An Epi G400, which had those Grover kidneys (this one dove a lot. If I took my fretting hand off, it's headstock would sink right down); two Gibson '61RIs, which had snot-colored Klusons and didn't neckdive much. At first I found that a bit odd about SGs but I didn't really stop to think about it for a long time, you know?

2 - I never paid much attention to that fact, because I was kinda busy playing the damned guitars. Plus, ever since I evolved from being a bedside sitter and started playing electric guitars attached to me by a strap while standing up, I paid attention not to simply let go of the guitar because you know, strap buttons do slip off strap holes. Les Pauls especially. Even strats, which seem to be the most stable of all electrics in that department do slip off and might fall. Not only once I was playing out and an otherwise secure strap just slipped off and I found myself holding the guitar in order not to let it fall and crash. You don't always have strap locks at hand, ans some guitars don't fit the cases with them, so you gotta learn how to play the guitar without letting it fall down.

It's not rocket science. Damn, I used to be a classical player and if you just let go of a classical guitar it might fall from your leg, we all lived well with that fact back then... But hey, last I've heard was that classical players were inventing all kinds of stuff to keep the guitars in place so playing gets more... ergonomic. I wonder if Manitas de Plata, Tárrega or Segovia ever felt they needed this.

3 - As for dressing cool, I couldn't care less if a musician dresses up like a clown or if he wears blue Levi's and a Walmart white tee. I want to listen to the music. Me, I dress how I want to, regardless of what the .... everyone will think. I wear mostly the "Blue Levi's, white or black tee and Chuck Taylors or Cowboy boots. Sometimes I throw a tailored vest or wear a bandana in my pocket but that's about it (plus the bandana is for wiping sweat or tieing something if needed, I don't wear it as a style item). I worry about my playing and making the audience dance and cheer, not looking cool.

Keep fighting.
Nobody told me my neck could dive with my MM SG bass in 1974 (me with the striped T-shirt). Did it ? I don't remember ... I don't remember my guitarist complaining either.

Internet forum thing I tell you.

1974 OFF.jpg
 
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deMelo

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Nobody told me my neck could dive with my MM SG bass in 1974 (me with the striped T-shirt). DId it ? I don't remember ... I don't remember my guitarist complaining either.

Internet forum thing I tell you.

View attachment 47649

Exactly. As you can see, I never even used wide straps or anything, I just played the SG just as I would play any other guitar:

50280381-108065650289703-7029456893282091008-n-108065646956370.jpg
 


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