SG neck dive solution

Discussion in 'Gibson SG' started by Chiefhibachi1, Feb 3, 2017.

  1. SG standard

    SG standard Well-Known Member

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    Biddlin, first, I admire and respect the fact that you’re willing to stand by your words. A lot of people wouldn't do that, especially the words 'neck dive is 99.99% psychogenic.' This is not meant to be an attack on you, I’m really not interested in trading insults. I want to know what you mean by some statements, and what attitude is informing some of your advice in this and similar threads. That’s all.

    Secondly, Plain English actually means something. You move away from it when you make up a spurious statistic. People do it all the time, for a reason, but it’s not in keeping with the principles of Plain English. No one who reads your sentence can tell if you mean ‘on 99.99% of occasions’ or ’99.99% of the effect’ – good Plain English equivalents would be ‘almost always’ or ‘almost entirely’. Try putting those words in place of ’99.99%’ - See the difference? That’s how Plain English works.

    Ironically, this lack of clarity isn’t the issue. Rather than simply standing by these words, could clarify two points?

    Firstly, and less importantly, why encourage people to ‘get over it’ when there are a multitude of ways they can effectively deal with it – as outlined in this and other similar threads? What is it that troubles you about people dealing with any neck dive issues, and sharing their methods? You’re baffling me with this attitude, can you explain why it bothers you so much?

    Secondly, what do you mean by “neck dive is psychogenic”?

    Perhaps we mean different things by ‘neck dive’ so lets be clear: I mean the effect of the headstock moving towards the floor due to poor balance of the instrument and the effect of gravity. This movement will continue until the guitar comes into balance, unless arrested or prevented, (by hand support, strap friction on clothes, alteration to balance, etc.). It’s something that happens ‘in the world’ rather than being a private, mental event: You could record it on a video, play it to some one, and they would be able to observe it. Broadly speaking, do we mean the same thing by ‘neck dive’?

    Now, something is psychogenic when it is caused by a psychological process, i.e. its origin is psychological. The word is often used in a medical context, distinguishing between psychological and physiological causes. But if I could move an object using nothing but the power of my mind, it would be reasonable to say the movement was psychogenic in nature.

    What you're saying is: 'Neck dive is caused by a psychological process'.

    So, Biddlin, how do you support your claim that ‘neck dive is psychogenic’? Are you saying that gravity is just a theory, and you’ve got a better one? There’s a research team who’ll give $10,000 to anyone who can prove paranormal abilities in their lab. If you can get your SG’s headstock to neck dive using nothing but the power of your mind, I’m sure they’ll let you off the 0.01% caused by gravity!


    Really, I would love to hear your explanation….


    Finally, and only because you’ve said several similar things before, and I think it needs addressing as it encourages people to walk away from SG ownership:

    Seriously? I never had you down for being such a quitter! You’ve surprised me. Let’s just recap on the ‘seriousness’ of my ‘issues’ with 3 of the last 5 SG’s I’ve owned:

    1] An SG I hope to be playing till the day I die. I finally got around to resolving its neck dive tendency permanently, and to my entire satisfaction. (As described here). But if I were you, I’d have a sad SG-shaped hole in my life.

    2] A stock SG with a similar degree of neck dive to what [1] had. I tend to play it sitting. I don’t gig, but if I did, I doubt I’d use it. If I still recorded at all, I’d probably use it – though it’s recently been sonically overshadowed by a Reverend Sensei. Who knows, one day I might sell it, but I do love SGs, so perhaps not. Note that I can love something, and still be aware of flaws in it, that’s down to psychological flexibility, so I’m happy to own that SG. Something I couldn’t say if I were you as I wouldn’t have bought it.

    3] An SG Standard bass – not surprisingly it had ferocious neck dive. I bought it new (discounted), enjoyed it, loved the sound, but sold it as soon as I needed space. I made a £100 net profit, and got to experience owning and playing an SG bass, albeit briefly. It’s fair to say that neck dive wasn’t the only reason I sold it – but if it had the balance of my Ibanez bass, I’d probably have sold the Ibanez instead. Had I followed your advice, my life would’ve been poorer, experientially & financially.

    Can you still seriously say that if you had ‘the kind of issues I have’ with SGs you wouldn’t own one?

    That’s almost as peculiar as saying 'neck dive is 99.99% psychogenic.' Neck dive can be dealt with in a multitude of ways, why fall at the first hurdle, give up, quit & miss out on owning an SG?
     
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  2. JCarno

    JCarno Active Member

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  3. Biddlin

    Biddlin Well-Known Member

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    Do you see a Gretsch or Mosrite in my photos? Nope. Guess why? They are uncomfortable to the point of distraction. I don't waste time trying to amend their native character. Maybe at my point in life time seems more precious because there is less of it available, but truly, if you wish to spend yours on Quixotic tasks, do so with my hearty felt blessing.
    You have a very good grasp of the meaning of psychogenic. Someone,more than a half century ago casually mentioned that his new 61 Les Paul was a little neck heavy. About twenty years later, this turned to,"My SG doesn't hang straight on the strap. a decade later, "SGs have neck dive." (While they have remained Gibson's best selling guitar) Everyone believes it, so it must be true. In the case of SGs the real amount of effort required to adjust your position is Lilliputian. Looking in the mirror just now, I realize that I naturally rest my right forearm on the aft upper bout when not playing. I have never thought about it too much, it seems intuitive, to me. Surely the way to manhandle a Mosrite or Gretsch whale boat must be intuitive to someone else and happily they too are satisfied. Whatever you like to call it, the blow over "neck dive" is much ado about very little, by even your strict definitions. The only advice I have given in this or the countless other threads on the matter is that if you have this problem, use lighter tuners, hang a vibrola device and learn to hold on to your guitar if it tries to get away. I have offered my considered opinion that the problem is overblown due to psychogenic transference, like gluten allergy and reaction to killed viruses. The number of posters who also report no or minimal difficulty lends some credibility to my theory, I think. You probably overcome gravity moving 20 times as much weight 15,000 times a day with less complaint. (Standing, walking etc.) I think playing should be as easy and pleasurable as possible. I have found over the years that when I am playing, I don't notice things like my absent Achilles' tendon or sciatica. Endorphin effect, I'm guessing. Maybe I'm just too zoned out to notice the neck dive and you are entirely correct, but I doubt it.
     
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  4. Dave_Death

    Dave_Death Well-Known Member

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    I got rid of the heavy tuner buttons on my SG Special and now I can play it standing up with no hand on the neck and a slippy Ernie Ball or DiMarzio strap.

    THAT'S an absence of neck dive. Not holding it up with my left hand all the time or gluing some 400 grit sandpaper to the back of my strap.
     
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  5. SG standard

    SG standard Well-Known Member

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    Well, I’m relieved that you haven’t completely lost the plot, but simply didn’t know the meaning of the word you used.

    Trouble is, you swing between saying neck dive is real & you don’t deny it, to stuff like this, which suggests you think it’s some kind of psycho-social construction.

    Biddlin, I’ve got two recent SG Standards that will neck dive to the point the neck is angled towards the floor! (Unless it’s prevented). This is why it’s not a myth, urban legend, or the result of people buying into someone else’s story. It’s you who is making this a big deal, by posting stuff like the above quote – I’m actually just saying:

    It’s real, on some SGs, but easy to deal with….

    …which is not a big deal, is it?



    But despite saying the following:

    You’re actually contributing a lot more than ‘advice’:

    Which now sounds like you meant to say “it’s 99.99% in the mind, a story, or made up”. (To be fair, I’m still not quite sure what you meant, that’s just my current interpretation.)

    Hmmm, but it’s not about weight, is it? That’s unhelpful – I could play a guitar far heavier than an SG, if it balanced well. Regardless, were you trying to suggest I’m physically impaired, just because I’m discussing solutions to neck dive? Why even go there?

    Congratulations. But there are many good teachers who encourage students to have a guitar properly balance on a strap, so their hands are playing, not supporting. So why, as ever, do you insist everyone must do it your way? (Especially when there are so many other solutions).

    Yeah, right… you’re only offering helpful advice in these threads. :rolleyes: Please don’t delude yourself. (And the above quotes all come from just this one thread, I really can’t be bothered to dig through any more of your ‘advice’ on this subject).
     
  6. Biddlin

    Biddlin Well-Known Member

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    Well I'm just so flattered that you have hung in this far. Like I say, I don't believe neck dive is any more a "real" problem than keeping your hair out of your eyes, but that's an major impediment to some, I suppose.
     
  7. Biddlin

    Biddlin Well-Known Member

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    Hallucinating, again. I never insist any such thing. "Do what thou wilt" is my motto (Well, Crowley's but he isn't using it.) Some of you guys really need help with reading comprehension. If someone thinks sitting on the upper horn and playing it between your legs is right, go for it. (pics please)
     
  8. SG standard

    SG standard Well-Known Member

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    I guess the latter could have fatal consequences on a motorbike, which would make it a 'real' problem for someone.

    Really Biddlin? Yet here you go, telling me I should play the guitar the same way you do….

    :rolleyes:

    Well, my reading comprehension is fine. But when you misuse words because you don't know what they mean, it's bound to be difficult to understand you. Perhaps try sticking to Plain English - Oh, wait you obviously don't know what that means either... :facepalm:
     
  9. Biddlin

    Biddlin Well-Known Member

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    It's not just a river in Egypt, bro. Suggesting is hardly insisting. Now, I suggest you put me on ignore and/or get over the butthurt.
     
  10. SG standard

    SG standard Well-Known Member

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    How about I ignore your suggestion and suggest you ignore me instead?
     
  11. Relic61

    Relic61 Well-Known Member

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    How about both of you taking a time out & just chillin?

    It would be a shame to deny the rest of us the pleasures of your exchanges by using that ignore button!

    No quitting, no quarter. You guys are going to be besties by the end of this.
     
  12. sg4me

    sg4me New Member

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    My first SG was an Epiphone and was extremely neck heavy with the locking tuners. When Gibson came out with the 2013 SG's with the 61 RI look but small headstock and Kluson tuners I new that was what I wanted so I picked up two. One ebony, one heritage cherry. Both around 7lbs. They both balance perfectly.
     
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  13. DrBGood

    DrBGood Well-Known Member

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    Wow, that's something I never knew I was afflicted with. Gotta go see my doctor for some meds now. Ishh ...
     
  14. Gillean

    Gillean Well-Known Member

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    but how are you guys solving neck dive? the ones who experience it? (I do, slightly but I do. I wish my SG balanced as well as my PRS...)
     
  15. Gahr

    Gahr Well-Known Member

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    I use a leather strap and keep my hand on the neck. I never thought about neck dive until I read about it here, although my SGs all dive a little.
     
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  16. sazista

    sazista Active Member

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    Wow. This thread was almost as explosive as mine when i posted my findings on the G310/Gibson/G400 comparison and got chased out of the playground by snotty 15yo stone throwers who had to be given tranquilizers by the other civilized ESG members. I know one of those kids is reading this now, but he seems to have toned down his agression, thank soy meat. Guys. Forget it and move on. Some dive, some don't. My G310 has no dive. My 2002 Gibson has a tiny bit. I don't care that much, maybe because I prefer the overall feel of the 310 over the Gibson. I don't see the point in dragging it out, as you both have made your points (and have pushed for a higher grade of semantic use, which is fine), but don't lose your cool. Personally, I think you should both just sit down, play and record something of your own work on the SG and send it to us to listen to!
     
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  17. Wildeman

    Wildeman Active Member

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  18. Biddlin

    Biddlin Well-Known Member

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    Double post, thanks ATT:rofl::rofl:
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2017
  19. Biddlin

    Biddlin Well-Known Member

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    I think I'd wish that my PRS sounded as good as my SG. Dream big!:rofl:
     
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  20. sazista

    sazista Active Member

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    I agree. I'm sure she didn't have the time or interest in such a subject. She probably found the back mounted strap button uncomfortable and just did what made sense. Why not?
     

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