SG neck dive solution

Discussion in 'Gibson SG' started by Chiefhibachi1, Feb 3, 2017.

  1. jtees4

    jtees4 Well-Known Member

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    The space between the pickups does seem excessive, I guess it gives more of a range between bass and treble...it works fine just looks a bit strange I guess. The strap button behind the upper horn that you see on mine is the way they made it (I just left it there but don't use it)....I added an extra one behind the heel like an SG and it balances fine. I meant it was unplayable the way they made it, which really amazes me because it was so obvious a problem. Because of complaints they did sell a small extension for the upper horn strap button, but I never bought one because I actually prefer the heel button like an SG has. Actually you can see it on this vox:

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. Norlin SG

    Norlin SG Well-Known Member

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    These guys never thought SG's had a nose dive problem and if you mentioned it, they probably have said Huh? WTF are you talking about?

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2017
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  3. Chiefhibachi1

    Chiefhibachi1 New Member

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    I don't know, it looks like the bass player is holding his neck up with his arm. The guitarists front strap button is on the tip of the horn, it looks well balanced.
     
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  4. Norlin SG

    Norlin SG Well-Known Member

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    Good points. I'll crawl back under my bridge now.............

    I think that their version of Summertimes has got to be one of the best ever song played on SG's.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2017
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  5. ivan H

    ivan H Well-Known Member

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    Is the bass player holding the neck up? If that's the position he has it to play he'd have a hard time clapping with his arm above the neck, the way it looks to me anyway. Cheers
     
  6. Wildeman

    Wildeman Active Member

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  7. cerebral gasket

    cerebral gasket Well-Known Member

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  8. Norlin SG

    Norlin SG Well-Known Member

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    Huh? What does that have to do with the thread topic?

    I don't think they were designed for a vibroto per say. It is/was early on a crappy bolt on factory mod inspired by Leo Fender's Stratocaster.

    As an aside, I have never played one but the early SG, from what I have read would not stay in tune very well.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
  9. LDS

    LDS Member

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    I have one of those basses, play it a lot.

    Yes, they are neck heavy, moreso than an SG. Yes, with a slick strap they will neck dive.
     
  10. Logan

    Logan Well-Known Member

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    The vibrato adds weight to the tail end, which would counteract neck dive. After I got lighter tuners and a bigsby, my SG doesn't neck dive. Not saying that it was an issue for me, because I have dealt with neck heavy guitars for most of my guitar playing life, as my Wildkat is super neck heavy so I am used to it :thumb:
     
  11. SG standard

    SG standard Well-Known Member

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    It would if the vibrato were heavy enough, or the neck dive very, very mild - to the point you'd probably not notice it. A Bigsby is pretty light - it's made of aluminium for a reason. I added a B3 to my '14 & it made absolutely NO difference. I even compared my '14 + Bigsby to my '16 without vibrato and there was no difference in the degree of neck dive. Only a slight difference in it's qualities, most likely due to Gibson's choice of a revised front strap button location.

    I think you'll find the answer is in the lighter tuners - fits with the physics: Small changes in weight at the headstock will make a bigger difference than weight changes on the body.
     
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  12. reingarnichts

    reingarnichts New Member

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    I really think the strap button at the heel of the neck works best if you hold your guitar in a higher position. Since I studied classical guitar, it works fine for me.
    Might not look cool, but I never had any problems concerning neck dive, neither on my SG (faded special, with a really crappy nylon strap) nor on my Hagstrom Viking (similiar positions of strap buttons).

    I did however have trouble with neck dive on a short scale jaguar bass rendering the instrument unplayable for long rehearsals/gigs.
    My Telecaster is also quite unbalanced and even my Melody Maker is not as balanced as the SG, in fact I believe my SG is the best balanced guitar I've ever played.
    So playing posture and strap lenght might also be factor to be considered...
     
  13. Cam.man67

    Cam.man67 Member

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  14. Harmonica Stan

    Harmonica Stan New Member

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    Hi all.

    Just to add my two cents to this. I recently bought a 2017 HP which suffered badly from neck dive. The solution was simply to move the top strap button back to where it always used to be, at the back of the neck. Totally cured, and now a perfectly balanced guitar. Note that , for unconnected reasons, I have both swapped out the G-Force tuner for vintage Grovers and added a Bigsby B5. Neither change made any noticeable difference to the balance of the guitar.

    Having now owned three SGs, I appreciate that instruments vary and that my experience may apply universally. But for what it's worth,

    1. Myth - the G-Force tuner is too heavy and causes neck dive. It's actually surprisingly light, and weighs only a little more than the Grovers. I suspect it's actually lighter than the locking ones that are fitted to the Trad.

    2. Moving the top strap button to the back of the horn was a mistake, and is responsible for the severe neck dive. Simple physics really. Unlike the Iommi tip of the horn approach, the new placement moves the button further down the body and not up it. It's only half an inch or so, but crucially seems to cross and put it behind the line of the centre of gravity.

    and a couple of unrelated points for those considering buying the same guitar,

    3. The adjustable titanium nut is an absolute joy. Genius.

    4. The G-Force tuner it works as it should, and has very powerful features. I guess I'm a traditionalist and just missed tuning the traditional way, but was very close to leaving it on. Don't knock it until you've tried it.
     
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  15. Logan

    Logan Well-Known Member

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    Welcome to the mad house Harmonica Stan! I hope you like it here! We need to see some photos of your SG, because if you've been lurking, you know how it goes. Pics or it didn't happen :h5:
    :photos:
    Hmm. Thanks for the info about the strap button on the horn. Never would have thought that would make a difference for the worse. Any noticeable difference with the smaller heel with the neck being more whippy? Also I added a Bigsby to mine. I wanted the long Bigsby so I went with a B3. :thumb:

    When Grovers upset the balance of people's SGs, then those robots will do the same. When I took the Robots off mine (because they stopped working, maybe because of the earlier gen, I dunno), the guitar immediately balanced. I didn't think it would make a difference but the Hipshot Tuners I got for it fixed the problem.

    This is the most interesting part of your whole post to me. It seems like Gibson stuck their finger up their rear end once again :hmm:

    Got one on my SG. I mostly agree, but even the Titanium one wears out and you'll get fret buzz when you're playing the open note.
    Did try it, and I rode that thing until the wheels fell off. It started tuning badly and made my B string go up to a D and I was scared it would snap on me so I took it off :thumb:
     
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  16. jtees4

    jtees4 Well-Known Member

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    I love SG's. I am also the owner of a Vox SDC 55. The Vox is very light. It came with the strap button behind the upper horn. It had the worst neck dive I have ever seen, and I've owned at least 10 or more SG's of every kind. I was going to add weights to the cavity or try something else, but I just decided to put a new strap button on the heel like and SG....and it was cured. It balances nicely and is a great guitar. I am very surprised that VOX did this because as light as these are, they must all be rendered as unplayable. Vox did sell a neck horn extension at one time, so they certainly knew about the problem.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  17. sazista

    sazista Active Member

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    Wow! Never saw one of these. It's wickedly beautiful, and has enough SG-ness for me to be friends with it! Got any sound files?
     
  18. SG standard

    SG standard Well-Known Member

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    Well, the G-Force isn't the only cause of neck dive, but as it's about the same weight as heavier machine heads, and as significantly lighter ones are available, it is possible to remove neck dive by replacing it, but only if you're using lighter ones. The same applies to replacing heavy locking tuners - simple physics of the situation, you need to remove less weight at the headstock than you'd have to add at the body. However, there are other ways of handling neck dive too - you can certainly have an SG with a G-Force & no neck dive.

    The words I put in bold are what puzzles me. I have a '14 Standard & a '16 Standard HP with the revised button placement. However, it is fractionally further forward than the traditional placement on the '14. Did Gibson move the button back in 2017? I can't imagine why they'd do that, but it certainly would make the neck dive worse!

    When I bought the '16 I made a direct comparison, using a strap with no grip, and the neck dive was as severe on both SGs. But on the '16 it seemed slightly faster, yet stopped sooner; in practical terms it felt the same when playing. The only real difference the new position made was in how the guitar 'hung' against the body - unless you've got a completely flat stomach it would angle up towards you, rather than tending to fall away - all based on the location of the pivot point of the strap button. I guess it would also vary depending on how high/low you wore the guitar.

    I've left the '16 as it is - but I've moved the rear strap button up on the '14 & this is one way to fix neck dive (there's a thread about it on the forum). Oddly, Gibson knew about this - if you look at the Explorer from 1958 the rear button is higher on the body, rather than in line with the strings - this can only have been done to improve balance. Yet when they brought out the Explorer HP in '16, the did the same pointless move with the front strap button...

    Agreed - I've had three of them & they all worked fine. One I picked up cheap on eBay & used it to replace the slower Min-Etune on my '14 SG. That's how useful I've found them to be... YMMV.
     
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  19. DrBGood

    DrBGood Well-Known Member

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    WOW ! 157 replies and 5,770 views, to this problem that isn't really one IF you decide to forget about it and play your SG.
     
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  20. Harmonica Stan

    Harmonica Stan New Member

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    Righty ho.

    Here's the guitar with the same strap (and no suede back side etc) on the horn button as shipped;

    IMG_0161.JPG

    and here it is with strap relocated to the back of the neck. In both cases I just let the guitar hang, although in the second I could freely move the neck angle up and down, within reason, with it staying put, as you would expect from a balanced guitar.

    IMG_0165.JPG

    Last one shows the neck button positions. Note the one on the back of the horn is 3/4 in or so further down the body. A near as I can guess, the line of the centre of gravity runs right smack between the two. I'm afraid I don't have a '14 or '16 to compare the button positions.

    20170823_115859.jpg

    No, not that I've noticed. 'Whippy' is not a word that comes to mind in describing the neck.


    I have to disagree.. it was a big problem for me because it stopped me playing it! I have small hands, and really need the neck at a fairly precise angle to allow me to reach with any control. I also need the guitar to stay there without either having to clamp it's body to mine with my right arm or supporting the neck with my left hand. Both severely restrict my ability to play freely.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017

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