Step away from the crack pipe...

Discussion in 'eBay Deals' started by Alex_SG, Nov 19, 2014.

  1. Kris Ford

    Kris Ford Well-Known Member

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    I recorded them, and could still tell..and every time I picked it up until I put the ceramic back, then the croaky, half cocked wah sound came back, where it was not present with the PIO..look man, I'm not gonna continue this pissing match any longer..bottom line is, there are people who swear there is no difference, and people that do.
    But as far as amps go, premium components matter. Theory be damned..real life proves this. Otherwise, someone's home build with cheap generic caps would sound just like a vintage original..and in real life, they don't, whereas a build using NOS parts that were used in the vintage originals are a hell of a lot closer, if not damn near spot on..all you have to do is go to youtube and watch some of the hundereds of comparison videos, and it's there..for my money, if something fails in my vintage Marshall, it had better damn well be replaced with an original part..not some cheapie, even if it has the same value and performs like the original on paper..
    Amp builders agree..:dunno:
     
  2. donepearce

    donepearce Well-Known Member

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    Can I hear the recording?
     
  3. Kris Ford

    Kris Ford Well-Known Member

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    This was years back..I don't have it anymore.
    But I'm actually in favor of the ceramics vs. the PIO, normally people go the other way..so I'm saying that I didn't think the PIO was all that..but there was a tonal difference. again, probably due to the actual reading of the cap, given it's tolerance..it's safe to assume that perhaps, and this debate has given me reason to believe, the cap I preferred, had the VALUE that sounded best to me, ie, it may have been +/- .022uf, not so much the TYPE, though I couldn't measure it, and perhaps again the PIO cap had a value that was, while still maybe in tolerance, was no where near the value of the ceramic..and also perhaps, PIO are more prone to drift than ceramic, thus going outside of their tolerance...and this is the reason I got the result I wanted...the actual value..not the type..
    This may be a big reason people swear up and down they can tell..it's the differences in value! What is used to accurately measure this? If a base line could be established between a known liked sounding cap, then you could measure caps to get exactly what you want..example, matching a cap to one that you love the way it sounds, or someone fine tuning the "woman tone" .015uf to .017uf...

    But amps sound better with premium components..with Marshall clones, it's true that you get what you pay for..
     
  4. donepearce

    donepearce Well-Known Member

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    My job is electronic engineering in a science environment - satellites. This means that I am specifying capcitors for applications way more demanding than guitar amps. If I was setting out to compare capacitor types for their sound the very first thing I would do is select them for identical value. I would probably be seeking a match within 0.1%. If you don't do even that, all bets are off.
     
  5. Kris Ford

    Kris Ford Well-Known Member

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    Is that tight of a tolerance even possible with guitar value caps?
    But even with out of the bin caps..I'm thinking what I prefer may be closer to the high side of the .022 tolerance, to roll off more bass..is this feasible?
     
  6. donepearce

    donepearce Well-Known Member

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    They can't build to that tolerance. You have to get a heap of them and measure. Tolerance is a poorly explained factor, particularly with older components. A 20% tolerance does not mean that any given cap is within 20%. You get a normal bell curve distribution of values, the tails of which are well outside 20%. These days most manufacturers define their tolerance as three times the standard deviation. Back in the day they didn't even multiply - it was simply the standard deviation.

    That means it was common enough to get caps 30% off the printed value. So yes, it is more than likely that your preference comes from auditioning a pair of caps at the two extremes of tolerance.
     
  7. potatofarmer

    potatofarmer Member

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    Caps are caps even in amps.

    Why doesn't a Marshall replica sound like a vintage amp? The vintage amp has had 40+ years for components to drift. Why doesn't a Marshall replica sound like a brand new unit did 40 years ago? It probably does.

    Plus we don't have the high-quality Mullard EL34s that were available for the not-exactly-well-designed Plexis to eat like popcorn. Now we have lousier tubes and they're more expensive, so people tend to design (even clones) amps that don't constantly break down.

    I don't know much about Marshall's choice of parts, but stateside Leo Fender was always building to a price point. People go gaga for those carbon comp resistors to get "that mojo" but there were far better resistors available at the time - Fender used them because they were cheap. The same goes for those blue molded caps - I fixed up a friend's blackface Bassman and roughly half of the magical mojo coupling caps were leaking DC.

    I'd love to use radio shack components, even if they're stupidly expensive, but good luck finding 450+V rated caps at a rat shack. I have used some generic 630V chicklet caps in a couple builds and they hold up fine. Kind of a pain to mount, but that's it.

    And if caps had "tone", why didn't capacitor manufacturers advertise it?
    Tales From The Tone Lounge; Vintage Advertising-Capacitors
    (google cache) - Tales From The Tone Lounge; Vintage Advertising-Capacitors
     
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  8. Kris Ford

    Kris Ford Well-Known Member

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    I stated I don't buy the whole PIO thing and actually like ceramics...they work just fine and are what my Gibsons (60s and early 70s) have stock. Also, the value is more important than the type..where I believe is the most major misunderstanding when changing one type of cap for another... and also, when most folks see 0.022 on a cap, they take that at face value, and don't realize that there are tolerances, and the actual value is very different...
    As far as amps go, whether it makes a difference or not, I would rather have a fully functional original cap than it's generic equivalent...
     
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  9. donepearce

    donepearce Well-Known Member

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    There are no generic caps - they are not like medicines. All manufacturers have their own versions.Make no mistake there are differences between cap manufacturers. I have recently completed a major test on electrolytic caps to select the best for a long lifetime power supply. I will allow no other manufacturer than Nichicon. Twenty years ago they didn't even exist, but if I were rebuilding a guitar amp, that is what I would use because I know they will not fail inside ten years.

    But while they are working they are no different to any other.
     
  10. Kris Ford

    Kris Ford Well-Known Member

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    If one were restoring a wiring harness for a '57-'59 Les Paul and wanted to get it back to 100%...the 0.022uf 400V DC Sprague "Bumble Bee" caps that guy is selling are mandatory....this is where caps ain't caps.. You can't put just anything in a Burst..which was my original point..perhaps I should've clarified this..
     
  11. donepearce

    donepearce Well-Known Member

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    Wanting to have original components for the purpose of authenticity is fine, but absolutely nothing to do with what we were discussing.
     
  12. Alex_SG

    Alex_SG Well-Known Member

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    OK. I managed to finally get to view that page by logging on with my VPN, using a Los Angeles IP address!

    Those prices are brilliant! :dude:

    I have previously paid AUD $12 each for a Sprague .022uF 630v Orange Drop cap of eBay. They aren't too easy to get over here. Most luthiers buy in bulk and keep their stash "secret", and the music stores don't stock them. If they need one for a repair they order it as required.
     
  13. potatofarmer

    potatofarmer Member

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    Have you looked into motor run caps? Film, of course; not electrolytic motor start caps. Somewhat more expensive than electrolytics and the size is a huge factor, but you'll never have to replace them. I'm going to use those to fix up a '52 Stromberg-Carlson amp and I imagine they'd work well for old Marshalls too, or anything that used the giant radial through-chassis caps. RG Keen suggested it. Should be much better performance than a guitar amp needs... I'd be interested to see your results if you ever post them on a blog or something though.

    By "generic" I meant the caps I used weren't branded, straight from China... what Mouser would probably label "Xicon".
     
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  14. Biddlin

    Biddlin Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
    Like this?
    ;>)/
     

    Attached Files:

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  15. WavMixer

    WavMixer Well-Known Member

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    Hmmmm... Woman tone . I just had to Google it and see what it is.
     
  16. IndyRocker

    IndyRocker Active Member

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    I am a firm believer people are using eBay to launder money.
     
  17. eS.G.

    eS.G. Well-Known Member

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    Wish some of that laundry would fall in my basket. lol
     
  18. potatofarmer

    potatofarmer Member

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    Those are Solen film caps, but yeah, definitely illustrates the problem. Motor run caps are generally even bigger. Fortunately they're available with the terminals aligned radially so you can put them outside the chassis with a capacitor clamp like the good(?) old days.

    Here's a more graceful execution:

    [​IMG]
     
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