This is gonna start a war!!!

Discussion in 'Epiphone SG' started by Alex_SG, Dec 16, 2011.

  1. Col Mustard

    Col Mustard Well-Known Member

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    IMHO, recording quality will be determined by the audience... they'll either buy your music or they won't.
    whether it's downloading your songs off your website for a dollar each, or buying your cd at a performance. If you include the presenters as part of the music buying audience, they'll either book you or not, (and invite you back OR NOT) based on the quality of your recordings and the quality of your sound (and maybe the professionalism of your conduct).

    so what do we do on this unrelenting quest for tone? we do what we CAN do. we only tune our guitars as well as we can hear, even with electronic tuners. we play as best we can, using the best gear we can afford. Will it help you get the gig if your SG says Gibson on the headstock? maybe... if you do your part. will it help you get the girl? prolly not. Girls look at your buns, or your car, or if your hair is stringy or your nails are clean. (I used to have hair... ;D) but if your sound sucks... it's only the lonely.

    so we try to make the best music we can. we practice, we record it, we listen and mix, we do it again. recordings can reveal all your strengths and all your flaws. Buy a Gibson if you can afford it, everyone knows this. But I maintain that it's your soul, and your fingers and your Amp (& signal chain)... and when the lights go down and the place gets smokey, an Epiphone SG can rock as well as a much more expensive Gibbie, if you've got the chops. Is it a Gibson? no. is it an SG? yes. But you have to prove it onstage. and that will get the girl.
     
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  2. Dolebludger

    Dolebludger New Member

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    As the owner of an undisputedly "real" one owner 1962 Gibson LP Standard (later called the "SG"), it's my opinion that Epi versions of this basic guitar are REAL SGs. They are made by a subsidiary of Gibson, but made overseas just like Fender Squire Strats -- which are still real strats.
     
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  3. Kevy Nova

    Kevy Nova Well-Known Member

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    For me personally, I like the Epiphone models that truly belong to Epiphone, like the Wilshire and Casino, but I don't care for the Epi versions of Gibson models. I'd rather buy a used Gibson Faded Special (I've seen them on craigslist for as low as $300) than a new G-400 that will need upgrades. There is no right or wrong to it, it's just how I feel.

    At the same time, there is still (unfortunately and sometimes unfairly) a lot of stigma attached to a brand. I have many "Allparts" guitars that cost me just a couple of hundred bucks and I would put them up against any $1,000 guitar, but as a professional musician, I know that you can upgrade an Epi by replacing EVERYTHING on it but people will never take you as seriously as they would if the guitar said "Gibson" on the headstock. As unfortunate as it is, you have to deal with other people's perceptions as well and they won't hear how great an upgraded Epi sounds or feel how well it plays, they'll just see the name and think you are an amateur.
     
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  4. Dolebludger

    Dolebludger New Member

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    Gibson had to get an overseas manufacturer to be able to offer guitars in the lower price ranges. They brand them as Epis. Isn't that more fair than branding them as "Gibsons"? As I posted earlier, I own one of the "original" Gibson SGs. I also own several other guitars, including an Epi '56 LP GT P90. Can I tell a difference between Gibson and Epi quality? Yes. Is that difference out of line with the price difference? No.
     
  5. dbb

    dbb Well-Known Member

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    Isn't the Casino the same guitar as the Gibson ES-330 series, which was the same fully hollow thin guitar with the neck joining the body at a low fret, like the Casino?

    " the Casino and its cousin, the Gibson ES-330 are true hollow-bodied guitars"

    Hey, I just found out both were introduced in 1958....
     
  6. Tony M

    Tony M Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the original Casino and the ES 330 are the same guitar.
    Gibson and Epiphone were producing instruments of equal quality
    back then. In fact, I believe that some of the Large Epi jazz boxes
    were preferred over their Gibson counterparts.
     
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  7. smitty_p

    smitty_p Well-Known Member

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    That is correct. I've read the same in other sources. That's what galls me about Gibson. In typical heavy-handed, corporate takeover fashion, they reduced a proud company to what is regarded today as merely an entry level guitar company.
     
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  8. Dolebludger

    Dolebludger New Member

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    As I have been playing on the "hobby to semi pro" level since 1959, I recall the American made Epis of the 60s. Most all of the solid body guitars and basses I saw then were Sheridan body style. Quality instruments with nitro finishes and all that. The bass man I played with in the mid to late 60s had one of those Epi basses (with two mini-buckers, I think) that looked and sounded sweet. But, as I recall, even those US Epis were at a lower price point than their Gibson counterparts.

    Epi got into financial trouble. I don't recall exactly when or why. Late 60s or early 70s? Somebody fill me in on this one. In any event, Epi went looking for a buyer, and Gibson turned out to be it. I don't think Gibson pulled a "hostile takeover" or anything like that.

    As Gibson prices rose with the high inflation of that time (and IMO quality slipped some) They needed and "entry level" line. So Gibson merely shifted production overseas to enable it to widen the price gap between Epi and Gibson, and create a true entry level line-up. Lots of other guitar makers did the same thing. Fender, PRS, and Dean come to mind. IMO, those companies are much more fraudulent than Gibson, as their guitars built offshore are still called "Fender, PRS, and Dean".

    It is a shame that the guitar makers can't find a way to produce and sell an entry level guitar line (or at least a mid-level line) made in the USA with American Craftsmanship.
     
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  9. Dolebludger

    Dolebludger New Member

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    As I have been playing on the "hobby to semi pro" level since 1959, I recall the American made Epis of the 60s. Most all of the solid body guitars and basses I saw then were Sheridan body style. Quality instruments with nitro finishes and all that. The bass man I played with in the mid to late 60s had one of those Epi basses (with two mini-buckers, I think) that looked and sounded sweet. But, as I recall, even those US Epis were at a lower price point than their Gibson counterparts.

    Epi got into financial trouble. I don't recall exactly when or why. Late 60s or early 70s? Somebody fill me in on this one. In any event, Epi went looking for a buyer, and Gibson turned out to be it. I don't think Gibson pulled a "hostile takeover" or anything like that.

    As Gibson prices rose with the high inflation of that time (and IMO quality slipped some), they needed and "entry level" line. So Gibson merely shifted Epi production overseas to enable it to widen the price gap between Epi and Gibson, and create a true entry level line-up. Lots of other guitar makers did the same thing. Fender, PRS, and Dean come to mind. IMO, those companies are much more fraudulent than Gibson, as their guitars built offshore are still called "Fender, PRS, and Dean".

    It is a shame that the guitar makers can't find a way to produce and sell an entry level guitar line (or at least a mid-level line) made in the USA with American Craftsmanship.
     
  10. dbb

    dbb Well-Known Member

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    Les Paul noticed Epiphone was going down in the late 40's when he was making his "clunker" models there. That's one reason he went to Gibson in the first place. Epis were great jazz guitars in the 30's and 40's, even into the 50's...Al Caiola? Howard Roberts?

    Originally Epi's were a 2nd line to Gibson, not a beginner line. If I had a music store in a particular town, in the days or mom-and-pop music stores, and I had a Gibson dealership, it may have been exclusive, and another store couldn't get Gibsons - but they could sell Epiphones.

    By the 70's Epi's were Oriental made and it took a while to get these up to snuff, even as imports.

    I think they do a great job of what it is they do....but it ain't what it used to be.
     
  11. smitty_p

    smitty_p Well-Known Member

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    Interestingly, I played an all acoustic, f-hole, archtop Godin 5th Avenue yesterday at the music store. See the link below.

    It was a lower priced model. Being a lower-priced model, it did have some typical traits of lower-priced instruments. It had a laminated molded top and back, not solid and carved, as you'd expect on a more premium instrument. But it was a really nice guitar for the price point. I see them online for around $500.00, but the local music store was asking $399.99.

    I expected the headstock to say made in Korea or Indonesia. But it said, "Made in Canada." It is made using largely Canadian wood, as I learned from my subsequent research. So, if Godin can do that (and the standard and cost of living in Canada are definitely not third world) I wonder why Gibson can't make a decent, albeit low cost USA made guitar.

    http://www.godinguitars.com/godinpress5thave.html
     
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  12. Dolebludger

    Dolebludger New Member

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    dbb and all:

    I am still curious as to what year Gibson acquired Epi, and what year thereafter Epi production was sent overseas. It will help me understand all the "Gibson vs. Epi" posts on this and the MLP forum.

    smitty__p:

    Since I recently moved to Durango, CO, where I discovered a brand of electric guitar called "DGW" (Durango Guitar Works), built right here, but using some Chinese components. (Google it up for pics.) Price is $329. Didn't show the usual signs of Chinese heritage, except that the body is poly finished, but thin. The neck and maple fretboard appear to be nitro. It'd s good player, capable of some familiar and unique tones. I mention this as an example of an "economy guitar" that I actually bought, and I don't give a damn about the price -- only the action and tone.
     
  13. smitty_p

    smitty_p Well-Known Member

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    The sale was done in 1957, but the guitars under new ownership began in 1958. I don't know about the overseas labor.
     
  14. Hammer

    Hammer Well-Known Member

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    Gibson does make decent, low priced, USA made guitars. Fadeds, Melody Makers, Juniors and even some of the Tributes fall well within entry level pricing, especially on the second hand market.
     
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  15. Kevy Nova

    Kevy Nova Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Hammer, but I guess it just depends on what you consider "affordable."
     
  16. Tony M

    Tony M Well-Known Member

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    I agree.
    In my world if something costs more than $44.00
    you are not allowed to use the word only.
     
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  17. dbb

    dbb Well-Known Member

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    From what I recall Epiphone began shipping guitars from Japan as early as 1971.

    Vintage Guitars Info - Epiphone vintage guitar collecting general info

    Epiphone - History

    good Epi articles

    "Epiphone instruments made between 1957 and 1969 were made in the Gibson factory at 225 Parsons Street and on Elenor Street. Only solid guitars with flat tops and backs were made at the Elenor Street plant (both Gibson and Epiphone) in Kalamazoo, Michigan. These Epiphone instruments were effectively identical to the relevant Gibson versions, made with same timber, materials and components, and by the same people as the contemporary equivallent Gibson guitars. They shared the Gibson serial-number sequence."

    "Before the sale to ECL, the possibility of producing Epiphone product in Japan had been taken under consideration and by 1970, Epiphone production in the United States shut down and moved to Matsumoto, Japan. However for the first few years of production, Epiphone guitars made in Japan were actually rebranded designs already produced by the Matsumoku Company. The Epiphone line was now a virtual orphan in the guitar world."
     
  18. dbb

    dbb Well-Known Member

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    It's these 70's Epi's that were pretty gruesome:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Not that they were bad Japanese guitars, but they were already outdated designs and never were really good.
     
  19. blake

    blake Active Member

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    its an official sg, gibson owns epi, and the epi sg has the same body, and sound(at least mine does) Also the g-400 is just a authorized offical remake of the 1962 gibson sg, so yes the epiphone is a real sg, i dont know why, but when talk trash about epis or sgs, i get pissed for some reason
     
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  20. happy_tom

    happy_tom Active Member

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    Probaby becouse you're a fresh owner.
    Don't worry you'll get used to it. :fingersx:

    It doesn't piss me off at all anymore. It is what it is: if it looks good, feels good and sounds good, that's good enough for me.
     

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