Treble Bleed on Epi SG Jr?

Discussion in 'Epiphone SG' started by Johnhawke, Apr 13, 2021.

?

Treble Bleed

  1. Yes

    3 vote(s)
    75.0%
  2. No

    1 vote(s)
    25.0%
  1. Johnhawke

    Johnhawke New Member

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    I just picked up a Epi SG Jr. which I absolutely love. I intend to do a wiring upgrade first off, my question is, do you guys think that this Sg would benefit from a treble bleed mod in the harness? It’s using a 700t humbucker, which I heard is awesome. My particular style is mostly 70s/80s rock and electric blues, not so much heavy metal.
     
  2. Go Nigel Go

    Go Nigel Go Active Member

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    I have never felt the need for such a thing myself, but if you do, just try it and see if you like it. It looks like a fairly simple mod, and equally easy to undo if you don't like it after all.
     
  3. plankton

    plankton Well-Known Member

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    I use treble bleed circuits on all my guitars. I use the guitar's volume controls a lot and don't like losing high end when rolling them back. I prefer the Kinman style with resistor and cap in series.
     
  4. JH1968

    JH1968 New Member

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    I have the treble bleed mod on some of my guitars. To my ear, when you roll down the treble the pickups sound very mid-y. Sounds ok when you’re playing alone but helps to push you into the mix when playing with a band.
     
  5. Norton

    Norton Well-Known Member

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    Treble bleed circuits are great.
    BUT, great pots with smooth tapers don't need them. I've got an Emerson pot setup in a p90 wrap tail les Paul. There's no treble loss when rolling off the volume, and the tone pot is smooth and gentle.
    So pots can make a big difference.

    seems like not all CTS's are created equal.
     
  6. donepearce

    donepearce Well-Known Member

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    Nothing to do with pot quality. At a given volume setting all pots will have exactly the same resistance above and below the wiper. That's just Ohm's Law. THe treble bleed capacitor is there to neutralise some of the effect of the lowpass filter created by the top end resistance and the cable capacitance. It is a good idea unless you want your guitar to become progressively more muffled as you dial back the volume.
     
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  7. Norton

    Norton Well-Known Member

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    It has a lot to do with pot quality. Or more specifically, the QUALITIES of a pot.

    As in, not all 500K pots are 500k. The swing between 5% and 20% is more than noticeable.

    Not to mention the behavior of the taper of those pots.

    In theory yes, all pots at a point will read the same. But how you get to that point and the distance you need to travel to get to that point can vary wildly.
     
  8. donepearce

    donepearce Well-Known Member

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    You won't find many close tolerance pots from any manufacturer - and it really makes very little noticeable difference anyway. The taper makes zero difference. All that changes is where the pointer points when you are at your desired volume. Once you are there, the innards have the same upper and lower resistances.
     
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  9. Go Nigel Go

    Go Nigel Go Active Member

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    I have to agree with Donepearce on this one. Resistance is resistance, no real nuance to the quality of it. There is not, nor should there be any expectation that a "7" on the knob of one pot has anything to do with a "7" on another. Audio taper vs linear pots will behave differently by design with regards to the rate of change, but 350 Ohms is 350 Ohms regardless of where it clocks on the dial. Numbers and clock positions are not a measure of anything other than the clock position of the knob in question. Always set amps, effects, and instruments by ear, not by the numbers. Remembering a knob position can get you in the ballpark quickly, but has no electronic significance that will translate with any precision to another knob or device. Even if you change a pot for an "exact duplicate" the results will only be "similar" in terms of where in the travel you find a specific resistance.

    I always have to groan and roll my eyes when I see "scientific" gear shootout videos where comparisons are made at painstakingly specific clock positions when the resistance of the knobs at those positions is totally unknown, but is most likely at least 5% different or more.
     
  10. Norton

    Norton Well-Known Member

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    I’ll be respectful, but I’m going to disagree completely.

    It’s easy to get tighter tolerance pots from nearly any maker. It just costs more.

    Or those pots within said range get rebranded etc.

    While I do put the meter on the pots I buy to get an idea of what they are and where they might be used, I let my ears make the decisions.

    of course.. Use what you want.

    my preference is going to be foe the gloves that fit my hands and the pots that have a smooth wide easy taper and have the highest ohm ratings within the zone I’m shooting for.

    i like the tone and volume to be useful on the guitars I build. But if you like to run things full all the time then pay it no mind.
     
  11. Go Nigel Go

    Go Nigel Go Active Member

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    With respect here also, my point is that a 500k potentiometer has variable resistance from 0 to 500,000 ohms, adjusted by moving the knob. As you turn the knob, a contact inside moves over a long wire of a known resistance per inch so any resistance from designed minimum to designed maximum can be achieved. Higher cost potentiometers can use a resistance wire with lower resistance per inch, and use more inches to get to 500k. This can make a potentiometer that has smoother response, but won't make any difference to the sound for a given resistance. I like a pot with smoother response, but it doesn't make any difference in my tone. If you go to 250k ohms on a cheap pot or an expensive one, the results will be the same. Where exactly in the knob rotation 250k ohms falls can vary by design, or chance, but 250k is 250k.

    The most expensive 500k potentiometer I ever saw was 4 inches tall (not including the shaft) and had a wiper that moved in a spiral rather than a simple arc. It took 10 full turns of the knob to go from 0 to 500k. The response was very smooth with very good positional repeatability for use in a scientific instrument. In truth however, if it was used as a volume or tone pot, the results in tone would have been audibly indistinguishable from the pots on a guitar or amp at the same resistance setting. There would be no audible benefit to using a 150 dollar precision potentiometer on a guitar.

    I would also note that the scientific instrument in question was still calibrated electronically by using an external standard to select the final position of the knob rather than by the number on the dial. Resistance changes with temperature, and the control was used to precisely bias the circuit under varying conditions to get a reliable calibrated electronic output from the instrument. At the end of the day though, it was "just a resistor."
     
  12. donepearce

    donepearce Well-Known Member

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    Your opinion, and one I pretty much agree with. But all entirely wide of the point concerning treble bleed capacitors.
     
  13. plankton

    plankton Well-Known Member

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    This discussion about pot tapers and resistance is interesting, but I don't see how it connects to the topic of treble bleed circuits. In my experience, every volume pot type and taper I've used loses some high end when it's rolled back. I generally tend to use 60's wiring when connecting a tone pot to a volume pot, although I have tried 50's wiring and it lessens the effect.

    I do know that different treble bleed circuits can affect the taper of a pot, especially ones with the resistor and cap in parallel. This is why I prefer the Kinman style, which is the two components in series.
     
  14. Johnhawke

    Johnhawke New Member

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    I’m just gonna go by the poll I guess. I feel like I’ve gotten in the middle of a street battle between Edison and Tesla here in a bad way. Lol.
     
  15. plankton

    plankton Well-Known Member

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    Don't let that bother you.

    The nice thing about guitar wiring is that it's pretty simple and uses fairly large components. Even if you don't know how to solder yet, it's the perfect way to learn. Different mods like treble bleed circuits or 50's wiring are easy to try out and easy to undo if you don't like them. Even easier on something like an SG because you can get to the control cavity without having to remove strings/pickguard like on a Strat.

    I would suggest you try the different types of treble bleeds and experiment with component values until you find what you like. If you have any more questions don't be afraid to ask. Welcome to the forum! :cheers:
     
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