What is everyone’s thoughts on the current Standards?

[Dangerhouse77]

I had a Classic in the early 2000’s that I unfortunately had to sell. I recently got a 19 Standard because my other two Gibsons are juniors. I love P90s but wanted something with humbuckers

 

[Huntroll]

Nibs could ultimately cause the demise of Gibson.
I despise them.

 

[Herbie74w]

I have played the new standards and the nibs are fine. It appears they are using thinner binding. I’m an older guy but nibs were a sign of an expensive instrument. And when done correctly give the neck a super smooth feel. Full disclosure I have never had any issues with nibs ever. Of course you can buy a different model without them!

 

[PermissionToLand]

The primary downside is the price hike which is also mentioned above. To get a 2020 SG with humbuckers and a slim taper neck costs $1799 list price, but you can get a 10%-15% discount most places here.

I ended up buying the 2020 SG JR and while the price has gone up, it also includes a hard case and accessories for the last 2 or 3 years which it did not include in the past. The price was a little more than I wanted to pay but I have been wanting a mostly historically correct junior that didn't require custom shop pricing for about 15 years now and I feel I finally got what I was looking for albeit a little pricey.

Price hike? Compared to what? The '61 Standard is not identical to a 2017-2018 Standard, despite sharing the slim taper neck. It is much more similar to a '61 Reissue, which was always priced in that range, and in fact higher, without even accounting for inflation. The current Standard is right around the same price as 2017-2018. The current Junior is only $100 more than the two versions that came before it in 2016 and 2018, and guess what, $1,300 in 2016 would be $1,400 today with inflation.

 

[SG standard]

Price hike? Compared to what?

Compared to previous prices!

Gibson SG Standards have been selling around the £1,000 price mark consistently for years - they got a price hike in 2015 - but most of that years production got sold off at heavily discounted prices - sometimes as much as 50% off, so it doesn't really count. The current '61 Standard is NOT an '61 RI, it's no more a '61 RI than the 2013/14 Standards were, as far as I can see - so I don't see how it can be justified as being a more expensive model by that metric (obviously, Gibson can charge as much as they can get - but that's a price hike!).

In 2016 I bought a Standard HP for £950 - it was discounted, (end of model year), but they'd been selling at around £1,150 for months at that point. This was the expensive Standard, IIRC the 'Traditional' was already selling at well under £1,000 before the year end.

The current 'cheap' Standard is the batwing, at £1,350, with the '61 Maestro all the way up at £1,800. The 'Modern' is £1,650** and is the nearest equivalent to the HP. Even a basic model like the Special is £1,350 - the same price as the basic Standard model... Seriously, you think the Special didn't get a price hike for looking 'vintage'?*

[**I'm using current in-stock dealer prices, as I can recall what I paid for SGs in recent years, but I can't recall the $RRP. Gibson prices for the Modern are equal to the '61 Standard + vibrola, but I guess the dealers know the Moderns don't shift at that price point]

I'm not sure where you're getting your inflation figures from - inflation is at very low levels, and is variable, some prices have been dropping. My hourly rate hasn't changed in a decade, workers in Europe tend to get pay rises based on years of service rather than a simple annual pay rise to match inflation. Bank interest rates are exceptionally low, basic savings accounts offer 0.5% or less - I've never seen that before... This is why I said Gibson SG have been selling around the £1,000 mark for years; they haven't been rising by x% due to inflation.

*Don't forget - Gibson is the corporation that discovered lifestyle pricing, Henry seemed to stumble upon it by accident in the 90s, and Gibson were celebrated in the business world for discovering this previously unknown dynamic: Put your price up, people buy more, put your price down, people buy less. But you have to be in the right position in the market - obviously the price dynamic is usually the opposite. What we're seeing in the range is a shining example of this pricing strategy, even down to the misplaced headstock inlay - you've got to keep the actual reissues a bit special!

 

[PermissionToLand]

Compared to previous prices!

Gibson SG Standards have been selling around the £1,000 price mark consistently for years - they got a price hike in 2015 - but most of that years production got sold off at heavily discounted prices - sometimes as much as 50% off, so it doesn't really count.

The 2015s were more expensive because they had significantly more upscale features than any other Standard before them. Compound radius fretboards, real MOP trapezoid inlays, the brass zero fret nuts, thicker fretboards, automatic tuners (a $270 upgrade alone in 2014), fretboards buffed and oiled from the factory, coil taps, hand-wiring (the 2013s were circuit boards) and a poly-carbonate control cover. Despite what people seem to think, Gibson has a very clear pricing structure based on features.

The current '61 Standard is NOT an '61 RI, it's no more a '61 RI than the 2013/14 Standards were, as far as I can see - so I don't see how it can be justified as being a more expensive model by that metric (obviously, Gibson can charge as much as they can get - but that's a price hike!).

The only features a '61 Standard lacks from the '61 Reissue are the wide headstock and '57 Classics. Neither of which are really upgrades IMO, or all that significant. The 2013 similarly lacks the wide headstock and Nickel hardware. That is a huge difference from the 2012 or 2017-2018 Standards, which use a completely different body and neck design altogether. You're only looking at price and not looking at the differences in features.

In 2016 I bought a Standard HP for £950 - it was discounted, (end of model year), but they'd been selling at around £1,150 for months at that point. This was the expensive Standard, IIRC the 'Traditional' was already selling at well under £1,000 before the year end.

The current 'cheap' Standard is the batwing, at £1,350, with the '61 Maestro all the way up at £1,800. The 'Modern' is £1,650** and is the nearest equivalent to the HP.

The 2016 Standards reverted to the old 2012 specs though. So of course they were cheaper than the years preceding them.

The 2020 Standard should not be selling for that much over there, because that would translate to $1800 USD when they actually sell for $1499 in the US. Sounds like somebody along the line is increasing the cost, whether it's the retailer or distributor for your country, I can't say.

Even a basic model like the Special is £1,350 - the same price as the basic Standard model... Seriously, you think the Special didn't get a price hike for looking 'vintage'?*

Again, you're not looking at the specs; the '20 Standard uses the old 1991-2012 body and neck. The '20 Special uses the '61 RI body and neck. So yes, in a sense there is an increase for historical accuracy, which has been the case ever since their earliest efforts at making reissues. From the rare late '70s Guitar Trader Les Paul reissues to the SG-62 costing more than the 1986 Standard and later the '61 RI costing more than the Standard. It's always been that way. They did have to spend time and money developing the '61 RI body design, after all. It wasn't free.

I'm not sure where you're getting your inflation figures from - inflation is at very low levels, and is variable, some prices have been dropping.

My inflation calculations come straight from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. They have an online calculator tool here:

https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm

My hourly rate hasn't changed in a decade, workers in Europe tend to get pay rises based on years of service rather than a simple annual pay rise to match inflation. Bank interest rates are exceptionally low, basic savings accounts offer 0.5% or less - I've never seen that before... This is why I said Gibson SG have been selling around the £1,000 mark for years; they haven't been rising by x% due to inflation.

... we're not talking about wage rates or interest rates, we're talking about currency inflation... these are completely different things...

And yes, the fact that they haven't been rising with inflation is the point; that means that they are actually getting cheaper the longer they go without a price increase because the value of a dollar is constantly diminishing. That was my entire point of bringing it up. The '61 RI was selling for over $2,000 as far back as 2008 (which would be $2,500 today!!!) and yet in 2020 you can buy a '61 Standard with all of the key features of a '61 RI for $1,799. That is a MASSIVE PRICE DROP.

*Don't forget - Gibson is the corporation that discovered lifestyle pricing, Henry seemed to stumble upon it by accident in the 90s, and Gibson were celebrated in the business world for discovering this previously unknown dynamic: Put your price up, people buy more, put your price down, people buy less. But you have to be in the right position in the market - obviously the price dynamic is usually the opposite. What we're seeing in the range is a shining example of this pricing strategy, even down to the misplaced headstock inlay - you've got to keep the actual reissues a bit special!

Gibson did not remotely "discover" lifestyle branding. Harley Davidson and countless others have done it for decades. You're also not even describing lifestyle branding. It has nothing to do with pricing structures; it's about building a lifestyle around your brand with ancillary merchandise like t-shirts and coffee mugs.

What you're actually describing is just typical of all luxury goods; that a certain premium must be retained in order to preserve the luxury image and sense of exclusivity. I would say they're absolutely doing that when it comes to the Custom Shop, which has seen actual price hikes in recent years. But when it comes to the USA line? That's demonstrably false. If you simply adjust for inflation, their prices have been remarkably consistent since even before Herny J took over. The pricing structure is very clearly logical to the point where you can predict the price of a guitar by its features.

 

[SG standard]

Gibson did not remotely "discover" lifestyle branding. Harley Davidson and countless others have done it for decades. You're also not even describing lifestyle branding. It has nothing to do with pricing structures; it's about building a lifestyle around your brand with ancillary merchandise like t-shirts and coffee mugs.

What you're actually describing is just typical of all luxury goods; that a certain premium must be retained in order to preserve the luxury image and sense of exclusivity. I would say they're absolutely doing that when it comes to the Custom Shop, which has seen actual price hikes in recent years. But when it comes to the USA line? That's demonstrably false. If you simply adjust for inflation, their prices have been remarkably consistent since even before Herny J took over. The pricing structure is very clearly logical to the point where you can predict the price of a guitar by its features.

Whether or not a body has this or that carve is not really relevant here - as evidenced by the 2013/14 Standards which didn't get a price hike due to their closer-to-61 shape. The numbers still stand; Standards were selling around the £1,000 mark for many years - with a blip in 2015 (as you mention, Gibson improved specs, but ended up clearing the stock much cheaper). Now Standards are way above that price point, and it happened in about 18 months - we did NOT have high inflation in that 18 month period. No way!

You cannot use inflation as an excuse by simply applying several decades worth of price inflation to a year-on-year price increase! (and it would take decades of historic inflation values to make this much difference, unlike the 1970s in the UK)

Important: We're NOT talking about currency inflation, we're talking about PRICE INFLATION, whether it's driven by currency, wages, or just an opportunity, it's the price inflation we're discussing here.... Thanks for your 'inflation calculator' link. Did you actually try it? I did.

I checked the price I paid for a Standard in 2014 against todays value; according to the calculator it would now be 1,149.87 when adjusted for inflation, that's way less that the cheapest version of the Standard today - which by your vintage design based metric should be CHEAPER, whereas it's £200 MORE. That's what I mean by Price Hike! The other 2020 Standards are way higher priced!

A new example: The 2013 Gibson USA Kirk Douglas signature sold at c. £1,200, putting it slightly above the 2013 Standard (which had no Maestro or coil splitting), by around £200. The 2021 version is priced at £2,200, that's £850 over the basic Standard, and not far off a doubling of price in eight years. Did your weekly grocery bill double in eight years? How about your utility bills? Did Gibson's wages bill double since 2013? No, this is not a price rise in line with inflation, no where near it. Again I checked your calculator link: 1,200 in 2013 = 1,357.34 in December 2020, not 2,200! Big difference = big price hike! Quite literally, when adjusted for inflation, the 2013 Kirk Douglas SG would be selling for the same price today as the cheapest 2020 Standard or Special

Did you even bother to READ my post before bashing off a hasty response???? Where did I say Gibson discovered lifestyle branding?
Certainly not in the text you're quoting! Back in the day Gibson were front page news on the Wall Street Journal for THEIR discovery, not Harley Davidson's discovery - which is what I outlined in my post. This article recounts it well:

https://amp.reddit.com/r/Guitar/comments/2ni3dp/why_are_gibson_les_pauls_so_expensive/cme23es

PRICING. The discovery that they sell more when the price goes up, less when the price goes down, not simply in $ value but in units sold too. Nothing to do with the Custom Shop either. This was NEWS to the business world, headline grabbing news too. And in the days before the internet and 'going viral', Gibson were happy to talk about it; guitarists don't tend to read the Wall Street Journal.

 

[No Talent]

All I said is that there has been a more noticeable price hike recently I didn't want to get into the multiple factors for the how or why, or whether the price increase is justified. So what I say still stands. There has been a significant price hike in the last few years compared across previous years.

As an example I bought a Gibson SG 61' reissue brand new with no discounts at $1299 in 2002. The equivalent guitar now sells for $1799. I bought an SG standard in 2006 for $1199 the equivalent model now sells for $1399. From 2006 until a few years ago the prices seemed pretty stable across the Gibson USA SG models except for some special edition or limited edition models.

The same models have been creeping up in price more in recent years. There has been a few years where the prices remained the same however. My semi-educated guess is these increases are related to inflation, cost of raw materials (quality wood is getting really expensive), and labor costs. The wages for my industry haven't really changed much in the last ~20 years at the various levels of experience. I do not know how the average Gibson worker's wages have changed over that same time.

 

[PermissionToLand]

Whether or not a body has this or that carve is not really relevant here - as evidenced by the 2013/14 Standards which didn't get a price hike due to their closer-to-61 shape.

From 2010-2012, the old batwing Standard went for $1,199. The 2013 was $1,299 so you could either call that price hike or recognize that it was possibly the best value Gibson had ever offered. Kind of a cherry-picking way to make an argument though, to take the best value they ever offered in history for comparison's sake and ignore the vast majority of their pricing history.

The numbers still stand; Standards were selling around the £1,000 mark for many years - with a blip in 2015 (as you mention, Gibson improved specs, but ended up clearing the stock much cheaper). Now Standards are way above that price point, and it happened in about 18 months - we did NOT have high inflation in that 18 month period. No way!

You haven't presented any actual numbers. You know that I research the MSRP and Street price of every SG for the SG Wiki, right? I know the actual prices they sold for and you're wrong. The Standard went as high as $1,649 in 2009 ($2,000 today) after a brief period of price increases before going back down to $1,199. Now that was a genuine price hike.

2015 was not a blip either, the 2014 Standard went for $1,645. Again, with the automatic tuners that were a $200 upgrade alone, among other things.

Not sure what 18 months you're talking about but I'm guessing the change from 2018-2019? The 2018 Standard went for $1,539, MORE than the redesigned 2019 batwing Standard at $1,499.

You cannot use inflation as an excuse by simply applying several decades worth of price inflation to a year-on-year price increase! (and it would take decades of historic inflation values to make this much difference, unlike the 1970s in the UK)

Important: We're NOT talking about currency inflation, we're talking about PRICE INFLATION, whether it's driven by currency, wages, or just an opportunity, it's the price inflation we're discussing here.... Thanks for your 'inflation calculator' link. Did you actually try it? I did.

What are you even talking about? No offense but you really don't seem to understand how any of this works. I was comparing the price of a 2013 Standard to a 2020 and used the rate of inflation seen from 2013-2020 to do so. That is directly relevant and applicable. I did not "apply decades of inflation to a year-over-year difference". Why are you lying? I literally gave you the link so you could confirm it yourself. Punch in the date and the price, it's literally that easy.

Price inflation is driven by currency inflation (among other things). If it were not, they would be LOSING MONEY.

I checked the price I paid for a Standard in 2014 against todays value; according to the calculator it would now be 1,149.87 when adjusted for inflation, that's way less that the cheapest version of the Standard today - which by your vintage design based metric should be CHEAPER, whereas it's £200 MORE. That's what I mean by Price Hike! The other 2020 Standards are way higher priced!

You've also admitted that you bought your guitars on clearance sale, but are disingenuously comparing them to a '20 Standard at full price. The 2013 Standard regularly sold for $1,299 at the time, which comes to $1,470 today. At this point, it seems you're deliberately being dishonest.

A new example: The 2013 Gibson USA Kirk Douglas signature sold at c. £1,200, putting it slightly above the 2013 Standard (which had no Maestro or coil splitting), by around £200. The 2021 version is priced at £2,200, that's £850 over the basic Standard, and not far off a doubling of price in eight years. Did your weekly grocery bill double in eight years? How about your utility bills? Did Gibson's wages bill double since 2013? No, this is not a price rise in line with inflation, no where near it. Again I checked your calculator link: 1,200 in 2013 = 1,357.34 in December 2020, not 2,200! Big difference = big price hike! Quite literally, when adjusted for inflation, the 2013 Kirk Douglas SG would be selling for the same price today as the cheapest 2020 Standard or Special

Again, you cherry pick with one of the most radically great values Gibson has ever offered in history. You said it yourself, despite being kitted out like a Custom and having a Maestro and coil splitting, it was only $200 more than the Standard? It makes no fiscal sense from a business perspective. I'm honestly of the opinion that guitar was priced mistakenly by some employee and they just let it go because it was a limited run. That guitar was the most extreme aberration I've ever seen. And yet, you're treating the outlier as the rule.

The new version is a little overpriced IMO. With the '61 Standard at $1,999 with a vibrola, the Douglas should be closer to $2,300. But there are a lot of features that come along with Custom specs which a '61 Std doesn't have. Really, it just says a lot about how nonsensical the price of the original Douglas was; having a '61 RI body plus all the Custom specs but costing less than a '61 RI? Makes zero sense.

Did you even bother to READ my post before bashing off a hasty response???? Where did I say Gibson discovered lifestyle branding?
Certainly not in the text you're quoting! Back in the day Gibson were front page news on the Wall Street Journal for THEIR discovery, not Harley Davidson's discovery - which is what I outlined in my post. This article recounts it well:

https://amp.reddit.com/r/Guitar/comments/2ni3dp/why_are_gibson_les_pauls_so_expensive/cme23es

Did I read your post? Seriously? I tediously quoted you bit by bit. Including the very first fucking sentence where you said:

"Gibson is the corporation that discovered lifestyle pricing"

Are you seriously arguing over the difference between lifestyle branding and lifestyle pricing (which is not a thing, which is why I corrected you)?

Did you seriously just link to a Reddit post by some rando and call it an "article" as evidence for your claims? Wow. Not to mention there is not even a single mention of the term "lifestyle pricing" in that post. Are you okay?

PRICING. The discovery that they sell more when the price goes up, less when the price goes down, not simply in $ value but in units sold too. Nothing to do with the Custom Shop either. This was NEWS to the business world, headline grabbing news too. And in the days before the internet and 'going viral', Gibson were happy to talk about it; guitarists don't tend to read the Wall Street Journal.

Gibson did not discover that. As I said, that has been known for a LONG time. If this was reported in the WSJ, why did you not link that instead of some nobody posting a rant on Reddit?

Not to mention, their entire rant is completely divorced from the facts; a LP Standard cost $849 in 1980. That would be $2,600 today. That is from the thick of the Norlin era, 6 years before Henry came along.

https://www.vintageguitarandbass.com/gibson/catalogues/1980_23.php

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but some random guy on the internet bloviating about an article he barely remembers from 20+ years ago is not a substitute for these verifiable facts.

Coincidentally, I found the WSJ article he's talking about (it took 5 seconds to google up), and it does not say what you and he claim it does. And even if it did, would you seriously take the word of a CEO at face value? He's bragging about his business skills to a wall street rag. Do you think WSJ demanded he open up his books to prove to them that his sales had increased? Do you believe everything a marketing department tells you? Puff pieces in WSJ are PR moves, plain and simple.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB887153048269107000

What he's talking about is exactly what I said, lifestyle branding.

"We represent the musician lifestyle, the way Nike represents the athletic lifestyle or Harley-Davidson does a lot more than sell motorcycles."

Sure seems like he's giving Harley and Nike credit for doing it before him. What a coincidence.

Here is the part that is clearly ebing misinterpreted:

"the new management toyed with the idea of competing with Japanese rivals like Yamaha and Ibanez by cutting prices. But to Mr. Juszkiewicz's surprise, he discovered that the lower-priced instrument didn't sell. "We had an inverse price point," he says. "The more we charged, the more product sold.""

Of course, simply looking at prices and adjusting for inflation, we know that they didn't simply jack up prices. What they did was cut the budget models out of their lineup and position Epiphone for the budget range. Norlin was doing poorly because they were cutting costs/features (while maintaining prices) and offering ever cheaper options like the SG-100 and Firebrands. What Henry did was simply offer the more upscale offerings people wanted from Gibson, like an actual '61 SG Reissue. To suggest that the '61 Reissue being more expensive than a Firebrand is a "price hike" is absurd because they are incomparable models that occupy different spaces entirely. When you actually compare like models, Henry did not increase prices over the Norlin era. Sorry, those are the facts.

Funny enough, they quote a dealer saying the opposite of what you're suggesting Henry said:

"He says Gibson sales at his store have slackened recently in part because of prices -- about $1,400 for Gibson's most popular guitar, the Les Paul"

Also funny, is that $1,400 in 1998 would be $2,200 today, slightly cheaper than the aforementioned 1980 LP Std from Norlin!

 

[PermissionToLand]

All I said is that there has been a more noticeable price hike recently I didn't want to get into the multiple factors for the how or why, or whether the price increase is justified. So what I say still stands. There has been a significant price hike in the last few years compared across previous years.

No, what you said doesn't stand. You don't want to get into the details because you can't actually defend your statement.

As an example I bought a Gibson SG 61' reissue brand new with no discounts at $1299 in 2002. The equivalent guitar now sells for $1799. I bought an SG standard in 2006 for $1199 the equivalent model now sells for $1399. From 2006 until a few years ago the prices seemed pretty stable across the Gibson USA SG models except for some special edition or limited edition models.

$1,299 in 2002 would be $1,910 today. It has literally gotten CHEAPER. Not to mention, your price claim does not line up with the data I have. The '61 RI was not that cheap until you go as far back as 1995. By 1998 it was already $1,559.

$1,199 in 2006 would be $1,570 today. That has also gotten CHEAPER.

How the hell does a grown adult not understand inflation? The mix of stubborn arrogance and ignorance displayed here is appalling.

 

[Gibbo SG]

I think that today, the SG Classic , since so few were made, stands above the SG Standard as far as nonreissue Gibsons go. I like mine a lot.

 

[SG standard]

You haven't presented any actual numbers. You know that I research the MSRP and Street price of every SG for the SG Wiki, right? I know the actual prices they sold for and you're wrong. The Standard went as high as $1,649 in 2009 ($2,000 today) after a brief period of price increases before going back down to $1,199. Now that was a genuine price hike.

Not sure what 18 months you're talking about but I'm guessing the change from 2018-2019? The 2018 Standard went for $1,539, MORE than the redesigned 2019 batwing Standard at $1,499.

OK, so again, you don’t seem to be actually reading my posts before replying to them, which means I have to keep repeating myself, which frankly is annoying. Please start reading.

I presented ACTUAL numbers in my initial response to you; mostly RETAIL prices from the UK, where I live, but I’ve been clear about that too. Here’s a new one for you:

Gibson Custom Shop SG Custom P-90, one last spring advertised at £3,399.00, (and sold discounted from that RRP), this January two more available here at £4,399.00. That’s a £1,000 price hike on a £3,400 guitar. That’s not congruent with the current rate of inflation!

I have described the period from 2013 to date, and focused on SG Standard models, this should be clear from my previous posts. There have been price fluctuations, but broadly speaking the SG Standard has been selling around the £1,000 mark. It no longer does. Nowhere near that.

2015 was not a blip either, the 2014 Standard went for $1,645. Again, with the automatic tuners that were a $200 upgrade alone, among other things.

The 2013 & 2014 Standards retailed within £100.00 of each other, I know, I was shopping for one – this was true even when the 2013 was the ‘old model’ during 2014, I know, I looked at them in a store as well as online. Yes, the Min-E-tune was an optional extra in 2013, actually a £100 upcharge, and included in the 2014 price, no option. Nonetheless, retail prices were within £100 of each other. One dealer described the tuner as 'free' to me because the prices were so close.

2015 saw a significant price rise across the Gibson range, lots of unpopular features, and dealers struggled to sell anything until the clearance sales began, during 2015.

Not sure what 18 months you're talking about but I'm guessing the change from 2018-2019? The 2018 Standard went for $1,539, MORE than the redesigned 2019 batwing Standard at $1,499.

The price hike has occurred since the change of ownership, in case that wasn’t already clear from my previous posts.

Now who’s being selective? The redesigned small pickguard 2019 Standard is $1,999.00 which is MORE than the 2018 small pickguard Standard, and by a bigger margin too. And of course the batwing you’re making a comparison with comes with a soft case.

What are you even talking about?

If you want to know the answer to that I suggest you start to actually read my posts. They are pretty clear in their content if you just bother to read them, rather than chucking random arguments at me.

I was comparing the price of a 2013 Standard to a 2020 and used the rate of inflation seen from 2013-2020 to do so. That is directly relevant and applicable. I did not "apply decades of inflation to a year-over-year difference". Why are you lying? I literally gave you the link so you could confirm it yourself. Punch in the date and the price, it's literally that easy.

I’m not the one lying. When I asked you, you said:

“My inflation calculations come straight from the Bureau of Labor Statistics.”

First: I’m talking about a “price hike” to the SG Standard, which has occurred over a short period of time since the change in ownership. THAT SHOULD BE CLEAR.

You cannot apply inflation from 2013 (or any random date) to 2020 to account for a price rise between 2017 and 2020 – it simply doesn’t work that way. Why stop at 2013, why not 1961? If you tried that, the current prices would probably look like bargains… BUT, it has nothing to do with a price rise between 2017 and 2020! Should be a simple concept, why are you struggling with this?

[In case it’s not clear, consider this less emotive example: If Apple doubled the price of their computers tomorrow they’d still be great value compared to 1995 prices. Does that mean they didn’t hike their prices?]

Second: Even if you do that – IT STILL DOESN’T WORK!!! As I already demonstrated to you, an inflation adjusted price for the SG Standard from 2014 to today’s prices gives a current retail price of £1,149.87, whereas the ‘cheap’ Standard with a batwing and softcase is £1,350 retail – a full £200 ABOVE inflation, and the more honest comparison, with the small pickguard + hard case is retailing at £1,599 – that’s WAY above the rate of inflation.

Basically, don’t even bother trying to suggest this recent price hike is simply the effect of inflation, because that is untrue, whichever way you look at it.

As I said in my last response, I LITERALLY DID PUNCH IN THE NUMBERS AND IT PROVED YOUR ARGUMENT DOESN’T MAKE ANY SENSE.

You've also admitted that you bought your guitars on clearance sale, but are disingenuously comparing them to a '20 Standard at full price. The 2013 Standard regularly sold for $1,299 at the time, which comes to $1,470 today. At this point, it seems you're deliberately being dishonest.

Rubbish! FACT CHECK: I bought my 2014 Standard at retail price (I actually asked and got £100 off, but I’m quoting you the retail – no discount, let alone clearance).

Be very careful if you’re going to call me dishonest. I clearly stated:

“In 2016 I bought a Standard HP for £950 - it was discounted, (end of model year), but they'd been selling at around £1,150 for months at that point. This was the expensive Standard, IIRC the 'Traditional' was already selling at well under £1,000 before the year end.”

Where is the dishonesty in that? I mention the price I paid, the fact that it was discounted, but also the prior retail price, the fact it was an HP (therefore not directly compatible), and also the ‘Traditional’ model pricing. You’re the one being dishonest here, by misrepresenting the facts I’ve been clearly stating. Please don’t do that. The point I made stands – 2016 SG Standards were available at SUB £1,000 retail, and thus the ‘around £1,000’ price point was still true that year (in fact lower).

Did I read your post? Seriously? I tediously quoted you bit by bit. Including the very first fucking sentence where you said:


"Gibson is the corporation that discovered lifestyle pricing"


Are you seriously arguing over the difference between lifestyle branding and lifestyle pricing (which is not a thing, which is why I corrected you)?


Did you seriously just link to a Reddit post by some rando and call it an "article" as evidence for your claims? Wow. Not to mention there is not even a single mention of the term "lifestyle pricing" in that post. Are you okay?

OK, so now you’re swearing at me, and making it personal – that says it all. And resorting to Ad Hominem arguments isn’t going to help either.

Branding and pricing are indeed different concepts; they’re not synonyms. I was very clear about the point here, you’re still trying to confuse this by talking about branding.

TL/DR:

Claiming that Gibsons recent price hikes are down to inflation is utter rubbish.

 

[SG standard]

Again, you cherry pick with one of the most radically great values Gibson has ever offered in history. You said it yourself, despite being kitted out like a Custom and having a Maestro and coil splitting, it was only $200 more than the Standard? It makes no fiscal sense from a business perspective. I'm honestly of the opinion that guitar was priced mistakenly by some employee and they just let it go because it was a limited run. That guitar was the most extreme aberration I've ever seen. And yet, you're treating the outlier as the rule.

The new version is a little overpriced IMO. With the '61 Standard at $1,999 with a vibrola, the Douglas should be closer to $2,300. But there are a lot of features that come along with Custom specs which a '61 Std doesn't have. Really, it just says a lot about how nonsensical the price of the original Douglas was; having a '61 RI body plus all the Custom specs but costing less than a '61 RI? Makes zero sense.

OK, this warrants a separate response, as we're almost agreeing... But first, I didn't cherry pick - as you know this is simply the latest SG from Gibson USA, and it just happens to have an equivalent model in the timeframe I'm using as a baseline for comparative prices - simply because year-on-year is challenging due to spec changes, etc.

Yes, the KD sig was great value for money. But what if we adjust it's price up? How about we consider the 2013 Deluxe at c£1,600 (they did get discounts at retail, and were ultimately cleared out sub £1,000, but I recall them retailing at this in early 2014, with no discounts applied). This had three pickups, tog pot, Bigsby, flame maple top, fancy inlays and a split diamond in the headstock. Pretty reasonable as a guide, no? If anything, it has a higher spec, so we're really maxing out the comparison now.

So if we put £1,600 into your Inflation Calculator, and we set it to the earliest feasible date, January 2013, and the latest date available, December 2020, to maximise the amount of inflation, what do we get as equivalent? £1,809.79 (yes I know it says $ but I don't know the $ prices of any of these. Also these are USA inflation values, but there have been very close low inflation rates across USA/Europe in this time frame).

So if the KD sig in 2013 hadn't been a bargain, but had been priced in line with other USA SGs, the inflation adjusted price today is £1,810, which is £390 less than the dealer retail it's currently advertised at; £2,200. That's a price hike.

If we apply the reverse calculation, the £2,200 price tag of today becomes £1,963.85 in January 2013. That's way more that the 'top priced' SGs have been selling for between 2013 and the change in ownership. That's a price hike.

 

[No Talent]

No, what you said doesn't stand. You don't want to get into the details because you can't actually defend your statement.



$1,299 in 2002 would be $1,910 today. It has literally gotten CHEAPER.

I will admit I don't have all the facts and data and I never claimed to. There is one major error or omission in regards to your calculation and statement above.

While the guitar price seems like it is indeed cheaper, it is actually more expensive to the average buyer because in the US the federal minimum wage and wages in general have not kept up with inflation for decades while overall cost of living (food, rent, mortgage, cars, etc.) has continued to rise greatly.

I will say this which is a fact. Based on the annual rates of inflation over the last 10 years my raises (when I did get them) generally don't even (or barely) cover the rate of inflation. That combined with the cost increases I mentioned above means the buying power of my US dollar keeps slipping every year and has been for years.

Based on that fact alone the guitar is more expensive now than ever for me. Of course other people have different experiences and job situations so it's all relative.

Anyways, I don't want to stink up this thread anymore with this topic so I'm done here.

 

[Huntroll]

Nibs . . .

Its like every fret has a pair of toenails.

 

[Piper68Special]

No axe (sorry!) to grind here but I'm finding this all interesting and wondering if/how the exchange rate fits in.

This day in 2013- One US Dollar bought .62 GBP

Today- .7311 GBP

That alone amounts to a 136 Pound increase.

I'm assuming a US company under new ownership might make adjustments here. Wouldn't explain US price changes of course.

I'm usually dealing with this issue going the other way as I often buy instruments made in the UK. Bagpipes are cheaper these days if I order direct from the manufacturer but I've no idea how Gibson sets international pricing.

 

[PermissionToLand]

OK, so again, you don’t seem to be actually reading my posts before replying to them, which means I have to keep repeating myself, which frankly is annoying. Please start reading.

You've claimed this twice now and still never specifically pointed out what I'm supposedly missing. Seems like a rhetorical game more than anything. Again, it's a pretty absurd claim when I'm tediously directly quoting you, bit by bit.

I presented ACTUAL numbers in my initial response to you; mostly RETAIL prices from the UK, where I live, but I’ve been clear about that too. Here’s a new one for you:

Gibson Custom Shop SG Custom P-90, one last spring advertised at £3,399.00, (and sold discounted from that RRP), this January two more available here at £4,399.00. That’s a £1,000 price hike on a £3,400 guitar. That’s not congruent with the current rate of inflation!

Retail? As in, you've been giving me the MSRP all along? Jesus Christ... your dishonesty knows no bounds. You've been comparing MSRP to Street prices all along. Incredible. That explains everything. There isn't a markup by whatever retailer or European distributor you've got; you're just being completely dishonest.

I assume you're talking about the Lamp Black Batwing Custom you bought. Those are out of production. What you're probably looking at is a custom order that happens to look similar. Send me a link. Regardless, I already said that I was only talking about the USA lineup. The Custom Shop has a lot more volatility in pricing.

I have described the period from 2013 to date, and focused on SG Standard models, this should be clear from my previous posts. There have been price fluctuations, but broadly speaking the SG Standard has been selling around the £1,000 mark. It no longer does. Nowhere near that.

I have already responded to this vague claim you have never once backed up with data. Do I have to spell it out for you?

All adjusted for inflation:
1995: $1,516
1998: $1,545
2004: $1,616
2008: $1,939
2010-2012: $1,441
2013: $1,469
2014: $1,831
2015: $2,094
2016: $1,318
2017: $1,500
2018: $1,617
2019: $1,551
2020: $1,513

Gee, look at that, only ONCE in the past 25 years has it EVER sold at $1,300 (or £1,000). Take all those prices together and you get a median price of $1,545 (or £1,124), which is slightly over the STREET price of a 2020 Standard.

QED. That's it, your argument has been disproven. You can keep tilting at windmills but it doesn't matter. The facts are the facts, whether you like it or not.

The 2013 & 2014 Standards retailed within £100.00 of each other, I know, I was shopping for one – this was true even when the 2013 was the ‘old model’ during 2014, I know, I looked at them in a store as well as online. Yes, the Min-E-tune was an optional extra in 2013, actually a £100 upcharge, and included in the 2014 price, no option. Nonetheless, retail prices were within £100 of each other. One dealer described the tuner as 'free' to me because the prices were so close.

... this is confirming my point. The price difference was perfectly explained by the Min-E-Tune. No actual increase at all.

Now who’s being selective? The redesigned small pickguard 2019 Standard is $1,999.00 which is MORE than the 2018 small pickguard Standard, and by a bigger margin too. And of course the batwing you’re making a comparison with comes with a soft case.

Jesus Christ, I have ALREADY EXPLAINED THIS TO YOU. I can see you're projecting your own failure to read my comments.

The 2019 '61 Standard is akin to a '61 Reissue. The 2018 Standard is just the old 1991 Batwing Standard with a small pickguard instead.

Also, $1,999 is the price with a Maestro, which you're comparing to a stopbar 2018. More dishonesty.

First: I’m talking about a “price hike” to the SG Standard, which has occurred over a short period of time since the change in ownership. THAT SHOULD BE CLEAR.

You cannot apply inflation from 2013 (or any random date) to 2020 to account for a price rise between 2017 and 2020 – it simply doesn’t work that way. Why stop at 2013, why not 1961? If you tried that, the current prices would probably look like bargains… BUT, it has nothing to do with a price rise between 2017 and 2020! Should be a simple concept, why are you struggling with this?

You cannot possibly be this dense. You accuse me of not reading your comments and yet you REPEATEDLY strawman me making it clear you either haven't read or cannot comprehend them. I never once applied the rate of inflation from 2013-2020 when speaking of the change between 2017 and 2020. That is a LIE. Period.

Since you're apparently this thick, I guess I need to point out that my above calculations year-by-year were created by plugging in each year to the inflation rate SINCE THAT YEAR. Not since the first year on the list for every one. Which you would know if you made any f*cking effort at all and used the inflation tool I GAVE YOU THE LINK TO instead of just talking out your ass. You seem to be assuming that I'm coming at this as dishonestly as you are, spouting off retail prices compared to street prices.

[In case it’s not clear, consider this less emotive example: If Apple doubled the price of their computers tomorrow they’d still be great value compared to 1995 prices. Does that mean they didn’t hike their prices?]

That you don't even comprehend the ignorance of this statement is hilarious. Computers have dropped in price massively. And yes, it would, unless you're being deliberately obtuse and acting like a dollar in 1995 has the same value as it does today. You're like the kind of idiot who doesn't understand proportions and would say something like "white people commit more crimes than any other race in america" while ignoring the fact that the majority of the population is white.

The rest of your faulty math has already been disproven above. How did you manage to graduate grade school? These kind of obvious mistakes would land you an F as early as 9th grade.

Rubbish! FACT CHECK: I bought my 2014 Standard at retail price (I actually asked and got £100 off, but I’m quoting you the retail – no discount, let alone clearance).

Oh okay, you're not dishonest, you're just ignorant of the difference between Retail and Street prices. That explains a lot.

Be very careful if you’re going to call me dishonest. I clearly stated:

“In 2016 I bought a Standard HP for £950 - it was discounted, (end of model year), but they'd been selling at around £1,150 for months at that point. This was the expensive Standard, IIRC the 'Traditional' was already selling at well under £1,000 before the year end.”

Where is the dishonesty in that? I mention the price I paid, the fact that it was discounted, but also the prior retail price, the fact it was an HP (therefore not directly compatible), and also the ‘Traditional’ model pricing. You’re the one being dishonest here, by misrepresenting the facts I’ve been clearly stating. Please don’t do that. The point I made stands – 2016 SG Standards were available at SUB £1,000 retail, and thus the ‘around £1,000’ price point was still true that year (in fact lower).

It's now become clear that all of your ranting actually boils down to the fact that you're quoting MSRP for the 2019-2020 models and Street prices for every past year. So yeah, your own ignorance is to blame, sorry. I'll give you that it doesn't appear to be dishonesty, at least.

OK, so now you’re swearing at me, and making it personal – that says it all. And resorting to Ad Hominem arguments isn’t going to help either.

No, swearing AT you would be saying "f*ck you". What I said was: "Including the very first f*cking sentence", which could in no way be construed as swearing AT you, unless you're being dishonest, so maybe I should recant backing down on the dishonesty charge? You tell me.

Try looking up the definition of an ad hominem before trying to use the term next time.

Branding and pricing are indeed different concepts; they’re not synonyms. I was very clear about the point here, you’re still trying to confuse this by talking about branding.

Yeah, which is why I corrected you, because there is no such thing as "lifestyle pricing", only lifestyle branding. I'm sorry that confuses you, but it's really not difficult to understand, it's quite simple.

 

[PermissionToLand]

OK, this warrants a separate response, as we're almost agreeing... But first, I didn't cherry pick - as you know this is simply the latest SG from Gibson USA, and it just happens to have an equivalent model in the timeframe I'm using as a baseline for comparative prices - simply because year-on-year is challenging due to spec changes, etc.

Okay, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't pick the Douglas because the original happened to be the most insane value Gibson has ever offered in its history. But that is still true, even if you didn't realize it. The price of the 2013 Douglas did not even fit into the pricing structure of its own model year. It simply made no sense and I wouldn't be surprised if Gibson actually lost money on that limited run.

Yes, the KD sig was great value for money. But what if we adjust it's price up? How about we consider the 2013 Deluxe at c£1,600 (they did get discounts at retail, and were ultimately cleared out sub £1,000, but I recall them retailing at this in early 2014, with no discounts applied). This had three pickups, tog pot, Bigsby, flame maple top, fancy inlays and a split diamond in the headstock. Pretty reasonable as a guide, no? If anything, it has a higher spec, so we're really maxing out the comparison now.

Again, we run into the fact that you do not distinguish Retail prices from Street prices. Nobody sells guitars at MSRP. Nobody. That "40% off!!!" that every retailer states on their website is not actually a sale or discount, it's standard, and has been for decades. 30-40% off MSRP is the industry standard. Anybody trying to sell you a guitar at MSRP is trying to rip you off.

So if we put £1,600 into your Inflation Calculator, and we set it to the earliest feasible date, January 2013, and the latest date available, December 2020, to maximise the amount of inflation, what do we get as equivalent? £1,809.79 (yes I know it says $ but I don't know the $ prices of any of these. Also these are USA inflation values, but there have been very close low inflation rates across USA/Europe in this time frame).

So if the KD sig in 2013 hadn't been a bargain, but had been priced in line with other USA SGs, the inflation adjusted price today is £1,810, which is £390 less than the dealer retail it's currently advertised at; £2,200. That's a price hike.

If we apply the reverse calculation, the £2,200 price tag of today becomes £1,963.85 in January 2013. That's way more that the 'top priced' SGs have been selling for between 2013 and the change in ownership. That's a price hike.

Hang on, are you putting Pound figures into that calculator? That calculator is from the US government and is using inflation rates for the US dollar. So right there, we have a problem. Instead, you want to convert that 1600 pounds to USD, resulting in $2,197. THEN, you plug it into the inflation calculator, and we get $2,485. Almost exactly what a 2020 Douglas costs.

Again, I have to assume you're looking at MSRP for the 2020 Douglas as well, because £2,200 is $3,000 USD, but it actually goes for $2,499 USD. $2,499 USD would be £1,819... again, almost exactly what a 2013 Deluxe would cost today.

 

[PermissionToLand]

I will admit I don't have all the facts and data and I never claimed to. There is one major error or omission in regards to your calculation and statement above.

While the guitar price seems like it is indeed cheaper, it is actually more expensive to the average buyer because in the US the federal minimum wage and wages in general have not kept up with inflation for decades while overall cost of living (food, rent, mortgage, cars, etc.) has continued to rise greatly.

I will say this which is a fact. Based on the annual rates of inflation over the last 10 years my raises (when I did get them) generally don't even (or barely) cover the rate of inflation. That combined with the cost increases I mentioned above means the buying power of my US dollar keeps slipping every year and has been for years.

Based on that fact alone the guitar is more expensive now than ever for me. Of course other people have different experiences and job situations so it's all relative.

Anyways, I don't want to stink up this thread anymore with this topic so I'm done here.

You won't get any disagreement from me on the average American losing purchase power through stagnant wages. But that does not make what is by all accounts remarkably stable pricing by Gibson into a "price hike". Unlike many other goods whose costs far outpace currency inflation (like housing, tuition, medical care, etc), Gibson has basically just been matching currency inflation for its entire history as far as I can tell. Which is pretty darn hard to argue with, as they would be watching their profit margin decrease every year if they did not.

I wish that graph showed currency inflation though, kind of an important contextual barometer to leave out, y'know?

Anyway, I probably came off too strong there out of frustration.

 

[SG standard]

OK @PermissionToLand since you're now into trading insults I'll just clear up one point - If you'd bother to read what I was saying, you'd have seen all along that I was talking about the retail price in the UK 0 where an SG standard could be picked up for c.£1,000 for many years, not surprising, as we've had very low inflation for many years too.Either it's you being dishonest, or you've simply not been reading what I was saying all along. I HAVE ONLY BEEN COMPARING LIKE WITH LIKE IN TERMS OF PRICES.

Since the change of ownership the SG Standard models have seen a price hike - so this is no longer true. The cheapest model is now the Standard in the 'modern' collection, at £1,350without a hard case. The next is the '61 Standard at £1,600.

If you can't see a price hike when it's staring you in the face, then sorry, but it's you being thick.

All I have said stands, unlike you're bizarre claims: E.g., the current models are good value when compared to inflation adjusted prices from decades ago. Brilliant! Then the models before the price hike were unbelievably, amazingly, incredibly good value by comparison!!! What a genius.

If you've got to resort to insults, you've already lost the argument. Goodbye.