why valve amp?

Discussion in 'Amps & Cabs' started by ruffdog64, Jul 18, 2008.

  1. Voxman

    Voxman Moderator Staff Member

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    As far as SS Vox amps from the 60's ... well when thomas Organ screwed Tom Jennings (Vox ) and started putting out SS Thomas Organ Vox amps, and made in USA, not England, it lead to the ultimate demise of the
    " JMI golden era " Vox amps that made the line famous! The musicians knew at the time that they sounded very inferior to what they have heard for years, coolness visual design factors aside! Dick Denny, as his part to the Thomas design, added a very clever, interesting little circuit to those amps which put then " in the ballpark " which mimics tube characteristics, and this was the one saving feature to the whole USA made 69's Vox debauchery! The JMI Vox amps are the only amp ever made where you could play dead clean and get feedback .. brash, chimney and in your face [​IMG]
     
  2. 1Way

    1Way Active Member

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    [quote author=ruffdog64 link=topic=17430.msg227334#msg227334 date=1232378692]
    [size=9pt]1way would upgrading the tubes make that much difference and are all tubes the same fitting?[/size]
    [/quote]
    I agree with Tricone. Sooner or later most tube amp owners like to swap out tubes for better sound. Tubes can make a big sonic difference.

    You have only one preamp tube (12AX7) and two power tubes (6V6) so that's less tubes than many amps. I have 3 preamp and 2 power tubes.

    Most entry level tube amps come with sufficient tubes,,, at least they work. So this is an area that is prime for an upgrade. Your preamp mostly adds some preamp distortion and frequency equalization while the power tubes are more concerned about creating enough power for your speakers. Different tubes have different strengths and weaknesses and some are more or less difficult to explain. If you can afford to put in new power tubes and you want to see if they work better for you, then go for it, but it will probably be harder to discern the differences in your power tubes than the preamp tube.

    Preamp tubes are usually 12AX7 and are compatible with several other different tubes like the 5751, the 12AT7. If you want less gain, then you can go for a 5751 (30% less gain than 12AX7) or even less gain would be the 12AT7 (40% less gain). However with only one preamp tube, you will most likely want another 12AX7 in there. Here's a site that explains more about preamp tubes and gain factors.
     
  3. revelroy

    revelroy Member

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    tube amps DEFINITELY sound different than solid state amps, for many reasons. It's kinda like analog vs digital recordings. Although the sonic ACCURACY of digital is cool, there is something very 'harsh' or 'unforgiving' about them. With digital [numeric values, literally], it either 'is' or 'it aint'; NO 'grey areas so-to-speak.either ON or OFF.
    Very different DYNAMICS/SUBTLETIES. When you record 'hot' using TAPE[analog], there is room for 'DYNAMICS' at the sonic limits. If you try and record 'hot' [i.e. exceeding the sonic design limits]on digital, it is so non-forgiving, it just craps out sonically and clips[distorts] in a not nice way.
    Besides all the 'hype' [yes, there is plenty of that],think about it; just about all the cool music we all love that inspired us to pick up our SG's in the first place, was recorded using great TUBE amps! Our ears grew to LOVE that kind of sound. A point of debate may very well be: What IF all that music was recorded on solid state gear? would our ears have become accustomed to THAT type of sound, and we then would prefer SS instead? HMMMMM.......
    Wow, I'm getting too heavy for my own head here. where's my bottle of whiskey?
     
  4. guitarweasel

    guitarweasel Well-Known Member

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    My two cents.......Back in the late 60's I saw Iron Butterfly, Eric Braun used 4 Vox Super Beatles a Mosrite guitar and a Fuzz Face. That setup was absolutely KILLER!

    That was back in the day before the big P.A. rigs and nothing was miked, his rig would cut you off at the knees!!
     
  5. revelroy

    revelroy Member

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    ALOT of things sounded killer when we were very young, impressionable and sometimes in an altered [you pick your poison] state of mind.
    I remember going to my older brother's friend's sweet 16 parties to look at maturing chicks,but ended up trasfixed at the sound and equipment of the BANDS!
     
  6. tpa

    tpa Active Member

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    They are cool, they weigh more, they sometimes sound better to some kinds of music, they generally are are low noise when used with humbuckers and ... I have one.

    Today many solid state amps give competitive sound, though, and I do think that my next purchase will be a solid state or combined technology amplifier. Mainly due to the weight and volume issue with my current setup and I very rarely use the "native tube overdrive". As a side note ... in my ears analogue technique provides better sound and controlability unless it is high-end digital (this comment addreses the reverb and amplifier modelling circuits).
     
  7. Voxman

    Voxman Moderator Staff Member

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    The phase angle is wrong with the digital teck in tube amps .. Western Electric apoligized about that fact when it first came out but the musicial instrument manfactures saw a quick buck and went with it anyway , flaws and all! :-X
     
  8. 1Way

    1Way Active Member

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    [quote author=Voxman link=topic=17430.msg227412#msg227412 date=1232483988]
    [size=9pt]The phase angle is wrong with the digital teck in tube amps .. Western Electric apoligized about that fact when it first came out but the musicial instrument manfactures saw a quick buck and went with it anyway , flaws and all![/size] :-X
    [/quote]

    ... The phase angle is wrong with the digital teck in tube amps ...

    Does it effect all tube makes and all the different types of tubes, or just Western Electric?
     
  9. Voxman

    Voxman Moderator Staff Member

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    Tom Scholtz from the band Boston who has a MIT degree brought it all out in an interview he did years agoand of course I can't locate the interview :roll: where he spilled the beans on that whole technology when estern Electric first came up with it!

    Here's an idea base:

     
  10. Voxman

    Voxman Moderator Staff Member

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  11. 1Way

    1Way Active Member

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    Voxman
    :( .. :roll: .. ??? .. :-X
     
  12. revelroy

    revelroy Member

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    there's something very beautiful, human,warm,personal with tubes and analog [as opposed to anal-log; which is something that comes out of me after I drink my morning cup of coffee!].
    but[t] seriously, tubes ROCK! those cool little bottles of sound! solid state is cheesy.
     
  13. Constellation80

    Constellation80 Member

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    I thought id Jump in on this one again. I have a peavey renown solid state that rocks!!!

    I've been playing alot of newwave indie rock latley and it's clean crisp, good tone. Completely fits the bill.

    One thing no one mentions is that tube amps have a fake 12db loudness too them, which I think gives them the fat tone (IMHO) So when I crank my Solid state, I get enough umph out of it as well.

    I guess differn't tools for differn't styles
     
  14. Zeppelin Rules

    Zeppelin Rules Active Member

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    [quote author=Constellation80 link=topic=17430.msg227565#msg227565 date=1232713608]


    One thing no one mentions is that tube amps have a fake 12db loudness too them, which I think gives them the fat tone (IMHO) So when I crank my Solid state, I get enough umph out of it as well.
    [/quote]

    How do you fake 12db? They're either there or they aren't? Tube amps sound louder sometimes because there are more harmonics, and more frequencies being produced, but the actual volume is the same.
     
  15. SG Lou

    SG Lou Moderator Staff Member

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    Guys, Please excuse me for being a "Little behind" the times.
    Just last night at my buds music store, I heard for the first time a 63 Strat being played through an original 60 Fender Bassman.
    Other than tubes being replaced , this amp was 100% original.
    Even the 4 - 10" Jensen Speakers were original.

    This amp sounded so frikkin sweet I almost pooped myself.
    I couldn't get over the sweet tones that amp produced and it just seemed to sound better and better as it continued to warm up. I was standing in front of this baby and Danny ( The guy playing through it ) had the volume on 3 . My ears were ringing because of how loud it was.

    Man, I wish I had a spare $5600.00 becaus eif I did, that amp would now be home with me.

    I have yet to hear a transistor amp come close to the sound of a valve amp !
     
  16. ruffdog64

    ruffdog64 Member

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    Wow! i didn`t realise the amount of interest this would generate when i asked the original question , i must admit some of the in depth replies are way beyond my understanding, but i`m really loving my amp; now one thing has confused me , there was a suggestion i should upgrade the tubes for a better sound and so i went along to long established guitar store near me and asked what thier tube amp expert what he would recomend me to upgrade the tubes too and his reply was that if they worked don`t bother and anyway it wouldn`t change how the amp sounded which if i`m honest confused the hell out of me ???
     
  17. Constellation80

    Constellation80 Member

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    [quote author=Zeppelin Rules link=topic=17430.msg227584#msg227584 date=1232725898]


    How do you fake 12db? They're either there or they aren't? Tube amps sound louder sometimes because there are more harmonics, and more frequencies being produced, but the actual volume is the same.
    [/quote]
    well your right, this is the article i read along time ago from tubeampfaq
    Are Tube Amps louder than solid state amps of the same power?
    No. However they do SOUND louder. Let me explain.
    Some excellent scientific work on tube preamplifiers and their distortion products has turned up the mechanism for this. When tubes are driven outside their linear region, for the first 12db or so of overdrive the harmonics that they produce trick the human ear into thinking that the sounds are getting louder, when in fact the sound is getting progressively more distorted.

    It is this acoustic trick that can make tube amps sound up to 12db louder than they actually are compared to a perfect, undistorted amplifier. A solid state amplifier of the same power as a tube amp may distort at the same signal level as the tube amp, but the distortions are not subtle, and we hear them as distortion, not as a slightly louder sound. A solid state amplifier of much greater power would remain undistorted at higher levels, and the tube amp would sound comparably loud to the larger solid state amp.
     
  18. revelroy

    revelroy Member

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    louder, not louder, makes no difference. tube amps sound BETTER.
    You can always make a tube amp sound 'worse'[solid state-like], but you can't make a solid state sound BETTER [tube-like], no matter what the advertising says...
    sure, there are times when a solid state amp'll do, I've even recorded with them, but tubes rule...
     
  19. Spunky

    Spunky Active Member

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    revelroy,

    While I agree with you 100% as I'm a tube nazi like VOX, there are some modeling amps out there that come pretty darn close to sounding like a tube amp.
    I am amazed at the sound of my Flextone III XL but then again it is the flagship/top o' the line from Line6.
    For what I do, I cannot get a better copy of a Dumble Overdrive Special or a 1981 Soldano SLO.
    BTW: I own a real 1981 SLO 100. Dumble is out of my price range.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Constellation80

    Constellation80 Member

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    I have a Soldano Avenger 100.. great sounding amp. I wish I had a SLO

    But tubes don't magically make an amp sound good. The grave yard is full of rubbish tube amps. I remember my friends old harmony amp.
    The only amp I ever seen that brought me to my knees..literally. I was electrocuted by it. Sounded like garbage too. But somewhere some audiophile swears it's the best sounding amp ever, and was secrectly used by led Zeppline, or buddy guy for there studio recordings. lol
    My old Boss has a vintage Garnette 3 speaker 50 watt stack thats kinda neat. But no matter what gutar I plug into it. It seems to pick up every radio frequncy within a 100 miles. Maybe theres something wrong with it? he says it's allways been like that.

    my fav SS amp i still with I could get (cheaply) is the original line 6 axsys ..I seen a few bands play live with them back in the day and they just blew me away.
     

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