wraparound tailpiece questions

Discussion in 'Gibson SG' started by foghorn, Sep 23, 2021.

  1. MR D

    MR D Active Member

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    A big THANK YOU for that. Although the term I was hoping to get to replace the word 'TENSION' does seem vague. So, while I still don't have a term to go back to the Master luthier with, oh well.
    I had thought that the difference between the two spaces between the bottom of the string and the fret-board would be the answer as far as the different 'FEEL' (TENSION ?) concerning the 'Neck Relief' measurements portion of my comment. It does seem to cover the bases as far as the strings having the same pitch when struck un-fretted, as neck relief would not come into play. W.A.M., Or does Neck Relief actually affect the length of the scale ? That headache I did not miss is now arriving.

    GIBSON, I should have stated (For accuracies sake) does use the 'Rule of 18' as most manufacturers have ? Thanks to Pythagoras.....I should've been a bit more clear that someone @ GIBSON , apparently, made a miscalculation (Did they?) with the 'Rule of 18' a very long time ago and since that long ago date in time have never corrected the mistake? MY BAD. The part that gets me is that the 'D' should be no different than the 'G' as I have yet to hear players complain about the GIBSON 'D' problem. Another can of worms ?

    Maybe I should be glad I do not have to be a mathematician to play the guitar.
    Might Help tho? LOL !
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2021
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  2. beerbelly

    beerbelly Well-Known Member

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    Regarding the G (and D) string issues, I've wondered if the open book headstock shape is also part of the problem. The angled way the strings leave the nut vs. PRS, Fender, etc. makes me think there's more friction at work there. The LP Special I just bought had the sticking D, but the G was fine.

    00976_00976_hs.jpg 04-BV1A8848.jpg
     
  3. donepearce

    donepearce Well-Known Member

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    You definitely don't need to be a mathematician to play music, but I do know a lot of mathematicians and physicists, and almost all of them are also musicians of one kind or another. Applying experiment to the theory must be just too tempting to resist.
    When theory and practice don't match, get a better theory.
     
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  4. donepearce

    donepearce Well-Known Member

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    The problem is a familiar one, but the added friction almost certainly comes from a poorly cut nut. Although the nasty angle no doubt adds to it.
     
  5. MR D

    MR D Active Member

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    Music is mathematical? I've heard that before, somewhere....

    I would appreciate it if you were to take a Solid Body GIBSON Electric guitar, which model doesn't matter, SG? OK, an SG....and set it up the way you like to play it.

    Then, adjust the Neck Relief to .010"@ 9Th Fret, and play it ! then adjust the Neck relief to .015"@ 9TH Fret and play it! after that adjust the Neck Relief to .025" @ 9TH Fret and play it....then Finally, get the Neck Relief as dead-straight as you can get it (minimum .003" @ 9th Fret) without kinking the binding (If so equipped).

    This little demonstration should take about 25 minutes, PLEASE, play a song or two at each setting, and maybe your favourite extended lead(a few traditional scales will do as well).

    THEN, when you have done that, as a favour to ME.....a simpleton from the outlands (UH, not really), could you PLEASE LMK EXACTLY what the strings 'FEEL' like at each setting? Is it the same? Is it different? AT ALL ? if not 'TENSION', What would you call that difference?

    In my 2nd comment in this thread I stated that I did not want to get into this whole debate.NO, I did not ....and I still don't....I aready know my opinion, it is long held, on the matters and If someone is of the opinion that the difference in the 'FEEL' of the strings at the different Neck Relief settings (with all other settings remaining constant, in all the various Neck Relief settings) is just my imagination, that is an opinion that I do/would find hard to believe BUT if that's what the opinion is, WELL, that is the opinion......we all have one.

    However, if after doing what I have requested you kindly do: and you DO actually find some sort of difference in the way the strings 'FEEL' at the various Neck Relief settings, PLEASE LMK EXACTLY what it is you would call that difference. The GIBSON Authorized SVC CTR Owner I para-phrased in my initial comments in this thread is getting YET another visit from me in the next day or two. This Guy is what I call a walking talking GIBSON encyclopedia, a definite Guitar EXPERT, there is no doubt. I've known him for many years. The work he has done for me has been excellent. This Master Luthier is someone that has taught me a lot, and I wish I had met him long before I did.

    I will report back what this Man tells me, if you do the same w/the above 'experiment'...I'll appreciate it.
     
  6. donepearce

    donepearce Well-Known Member

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    I can do that as a thought experiment. The amount of force it takes to ground a string is directly proportional to the distance you have to push it. It has nothing to do with changing the tension in the string. A high action demands a greater force than a low action. The force is at right angles to the fret board. The force to bend the string is parallel to the fret board, and is dependent on the downward force multiplied by the coefficient of friction between fingertip and fretboard.

    So this difference is there, but it is caused by geometry, not tension.
     
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  7. Decadent Dan

    Decadent Dan Active Member

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    x (angle of the dangle) = y (mass of ass)/k (heat of meat)
     
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  8. donepearce

    donepearce Well-Known Member

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    That's it. Take the piss out of someone with the capacity to think. Always a winner, and it says so much about you.
     
  9. Go Nigel Go

    Go Nigel Go Well-Known Member

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    It IS kind of funny though. :naughty: Doesn't affect reality, and if I understand you correctly, I think you are correct.
     
  10. MR D

    MR D Active Member

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    OK, I used the wrong adjective. But glad you see what I was getting at. That difference is one of two reasons I set up my GIBSON's with as close to DEAD STRAIGHT neck as possible.
    Geometry was something I thought was pretty useless when I was taking that class to graduate High-School. ATT, I figured it would maybe help w/playing Billiards, but no, it just did not. Geometry did end up coming in useful when I was confronted with setting up a Floyd Rose Bridge. Funny how that worked out.
     

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