Acoustic saddle buzz only when held upright?

[PermissionToLand]

So this is weird. I had my acoustic tuned to open G for The Rain Song and when I tuned it back to standard, all of the sudden it's buzzing, mostly on open notes with the low E and G strings. The weird part is that the buzzing stops when I hold the guitar flat on my lap, as opposed to playing position. My only guess is that there's play in the saddle at the bass or treble end, but then why would it only surface now?

 

[donepearce]

I suspect you are on your own with this one. It is probably beyond the power of the mighty Internet.

 

[chilipeppermaniac]

I suspect you are on your own with this one. It is probably beyond the power of the mighty Internet.

Maybe not totally, Don.

Jokingly, Permission needs to hunt Automobile Forums for "Dashboard Rattles intermittently, and goes away as soon as it goes in the shop."

 

[chilipeppermaniac]

Permiss....

Let me see if I can help you locate WHY it does like you say, "While playing position vs on lap. "

Buzz goes away while flat on your lap like lap steel style, but while you are seated and playing it occurs.
Clarify " Playing position" Is this while seated or standing?

I am sensing it is a possibility of one of several factors causing a bridge/saddle to the body of the guitar issue where the sound wave makes a buzz.

Or, the relationship upon the saddle of the guitar up against your body vs. laying against your legs. ( this seems like a looser/guitar position which lets vibrations get distributed through the whole guitar) vs against body ( tighter focused vibes that are now adversely buzzing the saddle)

What type guitar and how old? AND are you sure it is the saddle and not string/fret buzz?

 

[chilipeppermaniac]

Could it also not be the saddle at all but maybe cross bracing inside?

 

[Go Nigel Go]

Loose bracing in an acoustic guitar is a possible cause of rattle that shouldn't be neglected if you can't track it down fairly quickly. You may need to have a luthier check it over if you can't find it sooner rather than later.

Squeaks and rattles were a bugger when working on cars, but a lot of the same techniques would be helpful. Step One is the most important, which is to reproduce the problem. Finding those positions and conditions that cause the rattle is the only way anyone will be able to localize the source and verify a fix.

If this isn't a twangy metallic rattle from the strings perhaps hitting a fret, I would start by producing the sound/rattle in the most reliable way you can find and trying to change or mute it my touching the guitar and applying pressure to various components and places on the body. If you can reliably make the sound, and then reliably mute or alter it by some other action you will be well on your way to finding the root cause.

A stethoscope might also be of use if you have access to one. One of those old surface mounted piezo pickups (the kind that you stuck to the top with putty) would do the same thing. It can help you localize the place the sound is being produced.

If this is a lower frequency "woody" sounding rattle, you will want to find it pretty quickly as a glue joint for the bracing needs to be fixed before the top starts to warp or crack.

 

[chilipeppermaniac]

Nigel, you think like I do.

DonEP has worked through quite a few of my amp electronics questions with me on Valve amps as I learned electronics. In the end after numerous minor fixes like some resistors and returning wires to proper locations, it turned out the amp flaw still persisted. INTERMITTENT issue of loss of sound. Turned out I found the answer with chop stick and locating it on OLD Fashioned Marshall style Ohms selector on a JMP. Tightened up male to female connections on plug in style adjuster/socket and no more loss of connection.

Like you said, isolate and eliminate, till the actual cause is found. Repair ASAP.

My initial thought would be to pencil mark the location of the saddle, loosen strings, put a wee bit of double stick tape under the bridge and replace it onto the guitar in same spot all stuck nice and secure from any movement. AND if it is the actual bone/ composite/ etc saddle that sits into the wood block, affix it temporarily somehow to eliminate any vibratory movement there as well.

Test and report findings.

 

[Go Nigel Go]

The only caveat I would offer to the above is that I would be very careful not to put anything sticky under the bridge. It will be a bugger to remove and would tend to dampen the string vibrations transferring energy to the top. A small strip of cloth or some "shredded" cotton balls would do the same thing for diagnostic purposes and be much easier to remove so the proper bridge to top contact could be restored in the final fix. Also I would only go that route AFTER trying to dampen the possible bridge rattle by pressing on it from the outside. If that is it I would expect light finger pressure to significantly reduce or eliminate it.

 

[Go Nigel Go]

One further thought I had on the "why now?" question is that the change in string tension from the alternate tuning MIGHT allow the neck to relax and twist or bow back ever so slightly causing a minor fret contact that didn't exist before. I would expect that to correct itself somewhat quickly after the return to standard tuning. If overall string tension was increased rather than decreased while in the alternate tuning, it is possible that force is what caused a glue joint to separate somewhere. More questions than answers on that front though, as there are many places the wood can move under changing loads that might or might not cause permanent damage. An acoustic guitar is a complex structure that behaves in a very organic way, and something like string tension can have an effect in the strangest places. If no actual damage is done though it should only be temporary, or require a minor adjustment once the problem is identified. The possibility exists that it could also just be a coincidence and is not actually related to the alternate tuning at all, but to the weather or something else.

 

[chilipeppermaniac]

The only caveat I would offer to the above is that I would be very careful not to put anything sticky under the bridge. It will be a bugger to remove and would tend to dampen the string vibrations transferring energy to the top. A small strip of cloth or some "shredded" cotton balls would do the same thing for diagnostic purposes and be much easier to remove so the proper bridge to top contact could be restored in the final fix. Also I would only go that route AFTER trying to dampen the possible bridge rattle by pressing on it from the outside. If that is it I would expect light finger pressure to significantly reduce or eliminate it.

Good catch on the "sticky" If I were to do it, I would have basically removed almost all the sticky by rubbing the tape on stuff,,,,,,,,,,,,, and using only the least amount of tackiness to hold saddle parts in place. Cloth works too

 

[DrBGood]

Could it also not be the saddle at all but maybe cross bracing inside?

Could also be the dash ...

 

[Go Nigel Go]

Could also be the dash ...

Funny story... one of the most stubborn dash board rattles I ever had to deal with was an extremely loud low frequency hum (sounded like a really bad ground loop) in a Ford Explorer that showed up at a very specific engine RPM. It was loud, and sounded like it was coming from deep inside the center of the dash itself behind the radio.

Long story short, it turned out there was a technical service bulletin, and the fix was to hang a 3 pound weight on the tail pipe between the back of the muffler and just ahead of the rear axle. Funny thing was, before performing the fix I had a coworker create the noise on the lift while I went under the vehicle, and I couldn't hear a thing. The fix did the trick though, so my lesson for the day was that when tracking acoustic energy in a complex system, it sometimes travels a long way before it emerges as a vibration you can hear.

 

[chilipeppermaniac]

Chased a water leak in a new '86-'87 Porsche 944 at our dealership once. We could run a hose all over the car for 8 hr shift and no leaks. Customer complaint was it leaked while pressure washing. Customer took us to a car wash with a wand and sure enough. IIRC, Porsche rep authorized quite extensive disassembly to find leak behind dash then seal and put everything back.

 

[PermissionToLand]

Holy smokes, this is an ancient resurrection! The original post was from 2016, when I still had my first cheapo acoustic. It was an issue with the design of the under saddle pickup. Credit to Alvarez, they sent me a free replacement pickup no questions asked, but it didn't solve the problem as I suspect it was due to the design of the pickup. Lots of gaps making the contact with the saddle poor. But hey, it was $180 brand new, what can you expect?



Anyway, I ended up getting a killer deal on a nicer Alvarez and I can't say enough good things about it. They went for $730 new and I got a factory 2nd for $350! The only issue I can find is some cloudy finish spots. All solid wood, Bone nut/saddle, Abalone inlays and binding, Ebony tuner buttons, gold hardware... This is the kind of guitar you keep for life. I played every acoustic I could get my hands on within a 50 mile radius and Alvarez were consistently the best sounding and best playing. Taylor was a close second but too bright for my taste.



In fact, I really need to make a belated NGD post for this thing, haha. That pic really doesn't do it justice, the wood is gorgeous.