Intonation for the G string at the nut.

[donepearce]

Far too much to bother reading, but I see you are calling me a trouble maker. Please don't do that. I'm not. And I guarantee I'm contributing far more of value here than you ever will.

 

[Relic61]

Far too much to bother reading, but I see you are calling me a trouble maker. Please don't do that. I'm not. And I guarantee I'm contributing far more of value here than you ever will.

How many fingers am I holding up?

You really should read it. Remove your fretboard so you can sit down and relax while you read about what I think about you and your uppity phoney BS.

 

[Biddlin]

What dear brother relic means, I'm sure, is that when someone is intentionally dismissive of other posters including a well qualified luthier, who has probably built more guitars than most of us own, makes contradictory statements as to their intent and abilities, and feigns offense when his statements and claims are called into question, we call shenanigans .

 

[dbb]

I think I just broke my G string.....oy gevalt....

 

[Relic61]

The funny thing about blocking is the blocker will never know what the blocked are saying and or in this case, exposing about ever post they put up that is full of their BS. I will take enjoyment in following every post DP makes and pointing out every bit of contradiction, arrogance, self adulation, faulty unreasonable thinking and Baroque dorkery laid forth that all must suffer through as a personal service for those of us that cant stand anymore of his BS. And I shall enjoy myself doing so. No gratuity accepted.

This alone shall make up for the rest of us having to tolerate such an overbearing uppity A-hole who wont buy a Gibson yet posts his crap on our SG forum. In fact, I suggest everyone should call him out on his contradictions and condescending arrogance just as a matter of GP when it happens, or, remain complacent & silent giving permission for people to do exactly what he is doing, talk about how wonder he and his homemade tele are while being committed to a specific complaint or point and not owning up to his own words written here for all to read.

Dave he basically told you that you're full of bullshit. We all know better. Seriously, there is a time to be nice and a time to call a spade a spade fellas or it will only continue. How long did America play nice before ending the big one. For every season there is a time.

 

[donepearce]

How many fingers am I holding up?

You really should read it. Remove your fretboard so you can sit down and relax while you read about what I think about you and your uppity phoney BS.

If my posts bother you, quit reading them. You are under no obligation.

 

[donepearce]

The funny thing about blocking is the blocker will never know what the blocked are saying and or in this case, exposing about ever post they put up that is full of their BS. I will take enjoyment in following every post DP makes and pointing out every bit of contradiction, arrogance, self adulation, faulty unreasonable thinking and Baroque dorkery laid forth that all must suffer through as a personal service for those of us that cant stand anymore of his BS. And I shall enjoy myself doing so. No gratuity accepted.

This alone shall make up for the rest of us having to tolerate such an overbearing uppity A-hole who wont buy a Gibson yet posts his crap on our SG forum. In fact, I suggest everyone should call him out on his contradictions and condescending arrogance just as a matter of GP when it happens, or, remain complacent & silent giving permission for people to do exactly what he is doing, talk about how wonder he and his homemade tele are while being committed to a specific complaint or point and not owning up to his own words written here for all to read.

Dave he basically told you that you're full of bullshit. We all know better. Seriously, there is a time to be nice and a time to call a spade a spade fellas or it will only continue. How long did America play nice before ending the big one. For every season there is a time.

Sonny, I bought my first Gibson in 1967 and I still play it. Since then I have bought, and still have, three others besides. As for the rest of your nonsense, I dismiss that utterly. Now kindly stop trying to make this thread descend into vituperation and argument. A moderator has already posted a warning.

 

[dbb]

Dave he basically told you that you're full of bullshit. We all know better.

Thanks, but sometimes I AM as full of it or as wrong as anyone else.

If I was infallible I'd be up for the open job of Pope.

I also try to stop myself from going too far....which I can, believe me. I'm Sicilian-German-Jewish....

 

[Relic61]

Far too much to bother reading, but I see you are calling me a trouble maker. Please don't do that. I'm not. And I guarantee I'm contributing far more of value here than you ever will.

Please note your insult and this being a response.

Your condescension continues to totally back up what I have said about you that annoys me AND OTHER MEMBERS. I happen to choose to speak up to you face to face. Calling you out is it way too easy simply because you can not control it or resist the opportunity to stroke it your ego and pump yourself up & that is what ruins your posts. Most of us hear don't like newbies with big egos bursting on the scene talking themselves up with their high standards and dripping condescension. Who likes that crap. Dupid!

Despite your distaste, opening up your mind to what I'm saying will go along way to you haveing less problems in the future. Ego meets smackdown time & time again both in life and anywhere else. You can ignor what people are saying or play things out to there inevitable end. Try some humility. It wins way more than arrogance does.

I would love to read useful things. I just cant tolerate uppity condescension that gets put in the posts or the flip flopping as seen in this thread from it being frets needing to be in tune and moved to fixing the nut to putting a zero fret in there. I mean which is it man? And how are we to have a discussion? Or is this just about you being able to preach about all you know? Who wants to engage when there is no engaging?

You make a statement and them when you get called on it you weasel it into something else. How is anybody supposed to engage your points? Your condescension, arrogance and pumping your self up only exacerbates the the whole situation bringing inevitable confrontation.

If you cant look at yourself and question the possibilty for change you are just here to massage your ego and need to find another room. And if you cant handle being called on that just keep crying to a moderator while I buy ice cream with your lunch money. Dupid!

Whatever you do, dont look at yourself and evaluate what you are doing in your posts.

 

[Tony M]

Originally Posted by donepearce
"Far too much to bother reading, but I see you are calling me a trouble maker. Please don't do that. I'm not. And I guarantee I'm contributing far more of value here than you ever will."

I was going to stay out of this until I saw the above.
I find it to be arrogant and dismissive in the extreme.

"Far too much to bother reading,.......
......And I guarantee I'm contributing far more of value here than you ever will."

In my humble opinion This pretty much speaks for itself and proves beyond
the shadow of a doubt quite a few of Relic's points in his rather lengthy post.
Not all of them, but quite a few. I do not feel that Don is here to "make trouble".
Of course this is only my opinion but I am entitled to have it.


That being said....
I feel Don has a legitimate complaint.
I can fully understand a person who works to tolerances in the micron
range being unhappy with the tolerances used in guitar making.
I have machine shop experience. Woodworking is sloppy by comparison.

and

Unless I am very mistaken here (highly possible) guitar making is a form of woodworking.
Yes? No? Maybe?
Would it not be impossible for any form of woodworking to measure up to
the tolerances expected in the electronics industry or for that matter
even in the metalworking industry if for no other reason than the very
nature and "machinability" of the actual materials involved in these
industries?

Let's take it a bit further.
Try machining a nut and bolt out of a block of styrofoam.
Now let's go in the other direction.
The Travis Bean guitar:
"neck through body design precision machined
from a billit of aircraft grade aluminum"
This really seemed like a good idea.
Anybody in here ever play one?

The reason a guitar is the way it is has a lot to do with the materials involved.
If Gibson, Fender et al were to change the design for perfect intonation, they
would sell less guitars because the guitars would look "funny" and sound
"wrong" to most people. A piano if tuned perfectly will not sound good.
Same deal.
They want to sell more guitars, not less guitars.

I may have wandered off point here (probably) but so what.:)

 

[Relic61]

Sonny, I bought my first Gibson in 1967 and I still play it. Since then I have bought, and still have, three others besides. As for the rest of your nonsense, I dismiss that utterly. Now kindly stop trying to make this thread descend into vituperation and argument. A moderator has already posted a warning.

Of course you dismiss it. Your ego wont allow you to honestly look at yourself or question what you are doing. Your ego, aloofness & arrogance drips from nearly every post you have put up. You display the need to feel self-important and that is obvious to all who read your posts. But you don't read your posts do you? You just write them and post them. Pretend you are somebody else and read your posts. Pretend you are somebody here who has tried to engage you and read your responses. Tell me you don't dislike that guy.

 

[Tony M]

Hey everyone!

Rule # 51:

"Sometimes you're wrong."

 

[Relic61]

Originally Posted by donepearce
"Far too much to bother reading, but I see you are calling me a trouble maker. Please don't do that. I'm not. And I guarantee I'm contributing far more of value here than you ever will."

I was going to stay out of this until I saw the above.
I find it to be arrogant and dismissive in the extreme.

"Far too much to bother reading,.......
......And I guarantee I'm contributing far more of value here than you ever will."

In my humble opinion This pretty much speaks for itself and proves beyond
the shadow of a doubt quite a few of Relic's points in his rather lengthy post.
Not all of them, but quite a few. I do not feel that Don is here to "make trouble".
Of course this is only my opinion but I am entitled to have it.


That being said....
I feel Don has a legitimate complaint.
I can fully understand a person who works to tolerances in the micron
range being unhappy with the tolerances used in guitar making.
I have machine shop experience. Woodworking is sloppy by comparison.

and

Unless I am very mistaken here (highly possible) guitar making is a form of woodworking.
Yes? No? Maybe?
Would it not be impossible for any form of woodworking to measure up to
the tolerances expected in the electronics industry or for that matter
even in the metalworking industry if for no other reason than the very
nature and "machinability" of the actual materials involved in these
industries?

Let's take it a bit further.
Try machining a nut and bolt out of a block of styrofoam.
Now let's go in the other direction.
The Travis Bean guitar:
"neck through body design precision machined
from a billit of aircraft grade aluminum"
This really seemed like a good idea.
Anybody in here ever play one?

The reason a guitar is the way it is has a lot to do with the materials involved.
If Gibson, Fender et al were to change the design for perfect intonation, they
would sell less guitars because the guitars would look "funny" and sound
"wrong" to most people. A piano if tuned perfectly will not sound good.
Same deal.
They want to sell more guitars, not less guitars.

I may have wandered off point here (probably) but so what.:)

Wow Tony! That is the most I've seen you write in quite some time! I appreciate you weighing in, being objective and bringing this back to topic with a summation that gives that sense of conclusion that comes from honest discussion. You have managed to say any things that I have tried to say yet thought unheard or shared by someone else.

That was sheer poetry and artwork all mixed together. Well done sir.

 

[dbb]

Would it not be impossible for any form of woodworking to measure up to
the tolerances expected in the electronics industry or for that matter
even in the metalworking industry if for no other reason than the very
nature and "machinability" of the actual materials involved in these
industries?

Let's take it a bit further.
Try machining a nut and bolt out of a block of styrofoam.
Now let's go in the other direction.
The Travis Bean guitar:
"neck through body design precision machined
from a billit of aircraft grade aluminum"
This really seemed like a good idea.
Anybody in here ever play one?

Indeed I have played those Travis Beans.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-foyuuEU27...606x410+www.GreatGuitarSound.Blogspot.com.jpg

and the similar Kramer

http://www.guitar-museum.com/uploads/guitar/94/270261927551-6.jpg

The problem was that although in theory the aluminum neck would be straight and not need a truss rod, it was sensitive to heat and cold (moreso than wood, and any pedal steel player can tell you about metal guitars and staying in tune - or trying to) and was hard to keep in tune and felt "cold" to the hand.

Nicely made, a good idea, but if it really was so good why are they gone from the market?

 

[Relic61]

Indeed I have played those Travis Beans.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-foyuuEU27...606x410+www.GreatGuitarSound.Blogspot.com.jpg

and the similar Kramer

http://www.guitar-museum.com/uploads/guitar/94/270261927551-6.jpg

The problem was that although in theory the aluminum neck would be straight and not need a truss rod, it was sensitive to heat and cold (moreso than wood, and any pedal steel player can tell you about metal guitars and staying in tune - or trying to) and was hard to keep in tune and felt "cold" to the hand.

Nicely made, a good idea, but if it really was so good why are they gone from the market?

Exactly & thank you Dave. Just like Tony You have managed to demonstrate a point I was trying to make but felt unheard, Why would/should Gibson change anything when their way of making Guitars has been extremely successful. Why gamble with success? Why spend time money & effort in developing a new fret-nut intonation that isn't showing demand or promise of success.

I've said it over and over that Gibson is solely motivated by money and profit. It is a business. A business that is doing well just the way they are doing things. You don't mess with success.

Love ya Dave. Can you forgive me for being so...un-Dave like? Hmmm??

 

[Biddlin]

Sometimes you feel like a nut

Hey everyone!

Rule # 51:

"Sometimes you're wrong."

"If you find it sufficient that most chords sound in tune to you, then good for you. For me, $2,000 means that all chords had better sound in tune. "


" I'm not being unreasonable in seeking Gibson to set up and machine their guitars to a level at which the user does not need to adjust and make allowances. Not at the prices they charge."


"Your luthier has said two things of note. First that the string tension is over 200 pounds. Well, he has doubled the true figure, so I leave you to judge his knowledge. Secondly he has admitted that by hand, using wood as his material of choice, he can't make an accurately fretted neck. Well, he's right about that at least."

Sometimes you're a rude, elitist, prat .

 

[dbb]

Exactly & thank you Dave. Just like Tony You have managed to demonstrate a point I was trying to make but felt unheard, Why would/should Gibson change anything when their way of making Guitars has been extremely successful. Why gamble with success? Why spend time money & effort in developing a new fret-nut intonation that isn't showing demand or promise of success.
.........
Love ya Dave. Can you forgive me for being so...un-Dave like? Hmmm??

Sure, no problem, mate!

In the 19th century, there were numerous attempts to "perfect" the violin, which had been slightly modified by raising the neck and lengthening the fingerboard in the earlier part of the century. The original design of course dates back hundreds of years further to the Italian Renaissance.

None of those perfected versions of the violin have replaced the one they were trying to improve. Some of those designs even won elaborate tests over great instruments of the past.

That's not to say that the designs were all bad nor even an improvement. But the needs of the musical world had no use for those improvements over the modified Stradivarius and Guarnari and Stainer et. al. violins.

Violinmakers today still use that basic design. My guess is that even hundreds of years from now, if the violin is still the mainstay of the symphonic world, they will be made about the same way.

Apply that to the guitar. QED

 

[donepearce]

"If you find it sufficient that most chords sound in tune to you, then good for you. For me, $2,000 means that all chords had better sound in tune. "


" I'm not being unreasonable in seeking Gibson to set up and machine their guitars to a level at which the user does not need to adjust and make allowances. Not at the prices they charge."


"Your luthier has said two things of note. First that the string tension is over 200 pounds. Well, he has doubled the true figure, so I leave you to judge his knowledge. Secondly he has admitted that by hand, using wood as his material of choice, he can't make an accurately fretted neck. Well, he's right about that at least."

Sometimes you're a rude, elitist, prat .

And sometimes the truth hurts. Deal with it.

 

[smitty_p]

Hopefully, I'm not revisiting territory already covered by this thread, but what about using a wound G string? I ask this since the OP was concerned specifically with the intonation of the G string. Some other snooping I've done around the interwebs suggest that a wound G string helps with some of the perennial intonation issues with the G string.

Has anyone tried an electric set with a wound G string? To take it a step further, are there any other benefits, beyond intonation, to be realized on an electric guitar with a wound G?

 

[Tobacco Worm]

That horse is not getting any fresher smelling. You two boys been whippin' that dead horse for sometime now and it's not moved an inch. And the whole forum can smell it a block away.

Here's a novel idea.

Bury the dead horse. It stinks too much.
Bury the hatchet and stop bickering over something that the builders are not going to do.

This reminds me of dealing with domestic disputes when I was a street cop. You go to the scene. Two or more are all in a tizzy over some trivial bit of nonsense, and at each other's throat! Everyone's right. Everyone's wrong....I used to put all parties in jail in seperate cells to cool off for disturbing the peace!

If you guys don't stop this stupidity, a "Cyber-Cop" (moderator) will come along here and shut this thread down and tell ya'll to "Cool it!".... Hummmm..... Come to think of it, that's not a bad idea either... Where's a Cyber-Cop when ya need one?......

Wade, out.