Musicianship: Does technology redefine it ?

[Biddlin]

Comments made on another thread, together with the passing of idiosyncratic pianist Van Cliburn, a role model for two generations of Texas' musicians, have prompted me to re-evaluate my definition of musicianship . It is a subject that has occupied no small part of my family life, having two brothers and countless cousin's who are professional musicians and/or choirmasters, and music teachers . Musicianship has been my template for nearly every other healthful habit I have managed to develop in this life .

When I first started playing tambourine with family groups, my first memories, I was encouraged to," listen, play, play better." Study and practice were only worthwhile if done correctly, including not just playing the correct notes in the correct time, but playing with the appropriate mood and intonation, listening and touch, as I have championed elsewhere. Having around 85,000 hours invested in such pursuits, I am now aware of new definitions of Musicianship .

Robotic Musicianship Group of the


comes quickly to mind . The Robotic Musicianship Group aims to facilitate meaningful musical interactions between humans and machines, leading to novel musical experiences and outcomes. Their stated goal: "Our goal is to combine human qualities such musical expression and emotions with robotic traits such as powerful processing, the ability to perform sophisticated mathematical transformations, robust long-term memory, and the capacity to play accurately without practice."
Robotic Musicianship Group | Georgia Tech Center for Music Technology
The University of Texas is trying to go back to the old ways in the modern classroom setting . " After watching instrumental music teaching in our professional lives over the past 30 years, we’ve come to the conclusion that many teachers’ approaches to instrumental music instruction go something like this: Get students to make a sound, any sound, on their instruments; then teach them to play 7 or 8 notes; teach them to start notes with the tongue; teach them to play a few different rhythms in common time; teach them to play softly when there’s a p and loudly when there’s an f; tap their feet to the beat of the music (or some approximation of the beat); count rhythms using some syllabic coding system; clap rhythms as they count; follow the conductor; breathe only at phrase endings; match one or two pitches to an electronic tuner. Are all these good goals? Sure they are. Anything missing? Lots. Music’s missing. And expression. And beauty of sound. And melodic intonation. "


The Habits of Musicianship: A Radical Approach to Beginning Band » Center for Music Learning


So where are you at, is it worth all the time and effort to learn to play a "traditional instrument," with other players and all the combined "flaws", or will great musicians be the most skilled programmers ?

Biddlin ;>)/

 

[JohnP]

Good question,
-Is the man of the new millennium prepared to put in all the hours required to learn how to play a traditional instrument?
People pay expensive tickets to watch a Disc Jockey pressing buttons on stage. The music is composed by looping sound samples in a sequencer software.

Some more info on robots and musicians In this thread: http://www.everythingsg.com/forum/general-music/19635-robot-band.html
I recommend the clip with Pat Metheny - an extraordinary musician programming an extraordinary “robot band”

 

[Tobacco Worm]

When I hear those techno what ya call it bands I'm left with a feeling of something close to having just watched a digital cartoon. Computer programed images and not drawn by real artists. Too sterile and just has no soul. I simply melt when I hear the likes of Leo Kotke, but when its some hip hop thing or all out programed stuff, I hear no musical talent at all. Just programing.

Like Tuco said "If you're going to talk. Talk. If you're going to shoot. Shoot. Don't try to do both." Thus if one is going to play music, play it, don't program it. But I'm old and think much as an oldman does when these digital things arise.

In the half century I've been playing guitar, keyboard, and drums I may still stink at times but I live by this thought: "Play it like you mean it and mean it when you play it." I may not sound great, but what you hear is me on my imperfect guitar with my imperfect human musical expression. But it doesn't come from a disk or a chip either. I'm a hand drawn cartoon afterall. Not programed. :)

 

[Biddlin]

"...just has no soul."
Indeed . Even most agnostic musicians( I didn't mention any Sarge by name) acknowledge a primordial connection to rhythmic and echoic music, or soul . From the purification chants and thanksgiving prayers of our earliest human cousins to Clairy Browne and the Bangin' Rackettes beltin' out "Love Letter," certain forms of music have been assigned transcendental powers . Does techno-music evoke that level of experience for anyone ?

 

[donepearce]

"...just has no soul."
Indeed . Even most agnostic musicians( I didn't mention any Sarge by name) acknowledge a primordial connection to rhythmic and echoic music, or soul . From the purification chants and thanksgiving prayers of our earliest human cousins to Clairy Browne and the Bangin' Rackettes beltin' out "Love Letter," certain forms of music have been assigned transcendental powers . Does techno-music evoke that level of experience for anyone ?

I think this sums it all up about as well as anything I've ever come across. It is from a BBC radio series called Soul Music. Each episode examines a transcendent piece of music and explores why it touches the soul.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSVCL262gmU

 

[dbb]

Does techno-music evoke that level of experience for anyone ?

It can - but like everything else it is because of the "player" or how I think of myself, the "conductor" of an orchestra of players that live in my computer.

To make a digital piece of music that is made from MIDI files and virtual instruments sound real one has to do a lot of tweaking to make it work - just like a conductor has to do with a real band in rehearsal.

As to the approach to musicianship, beginner band, instruction, etc. -

I was raised in a schoolband environment that was based on high technical standards and expressive musicianship. After all, it was New Orleans!

Both technique and expressivity were meant to compliment the other.

You had to be able to play...but you had to have something to say.

Me, I just try to use whatever musical tools work for me. I've even done the unthinkable and experimented with loops. But I'm making the loops.

 

[Heket]

Those samples have to come from somewhere.

Digital music will advance and it will get better and it will get more and more popular, but it simply cannot replace a real instrument in the hands of a real person. At least not in the forseeable future. Humans make mistakes. They improvise. They play the same notes in a slightly different manner every time. Sure you can program a robot to do that, but it won't be authentic.

We need the personal touch. The digital world seems to be running away with us, but people will realise it in time. In fact, they already are. Certain commodities look like they are going to stay digitised (cheap music, film streaming etc) but strip everything down to the root and there will be a real person there doing something somewhere.

Now, Biddlin, I'm one of those soulless people who gets excited about a bit of techno music as well as 'real' music. I can say I've had quite an experience with certain songs, but perhaps that's because in music I seek out mood and power and a thunking bassline/drums and I don't really care from where I get it! I listen to everything from metal, blues, dubstep, electronica, classical, world folk music.. you name it.

People still have to learn instruments because they are the root of everything. One day those samples will be lost or they will lose their integrity or someone's data gets corrupted. And let us not forget, how many people play instruments because the like playing the instrument and not just as a means of making music.

Technology will take us great places with music. I can compose a piece for an entire orchestra and hear it played back to me, which I think is an incredible thing. But once an actual orchestra gets hold of that score you can bet it'll be a completely different animal. The two things - music and technology - can dance together in harmony. But I feel (and dearly hope) that the latter will never beat out the former.

 

[Biddlin]

"People still have to learn instruments because they are the root of everything. One day those samples will be lost or they will lose their integrity or someone's data gets corrupted. And let us not forget, how many people play instruments because the like playing the instrument and not just as a means of making music."
I think I play guitar mostly because of its intimacy and portability . It has become an extra organ, wired into my nervous system . I cannot find that sort of intimate fluency with abstract instrumentation, but I can understand how others might . My oldest brother was an early user and advocate of synthesizers, and applied his classical background to composing several pieces for "non-traditional" instruments back in the 1960s . His career path, however, was to follow the more traditional pianist/composer route. I suppose each generation stands one foot in the past and one in the future, mine was fortunate enough to have a most eventful present !
" The two things - music and technology - can dance together in harmony."
Always . As a folksinger,relying on my acoustic guitar skills and vocal ability, I have been a popular busker in various city squares around the western hemisphere . Put an electric in my hand and I'm serious business, but in 1968, when I started playing on the road, Bob Dylan was still taking a beating from the folk music press about using electric instruments in a folk setting . The leader of a"clean" dance band, playing VFW halls and High School reunions, in the Pacific Northwest, told me," I hear one hint of feed back or fuzz and you're gone. " At the time I had a Heathkit 100 watt amp, I'd put together in my room at the Travelodge, and that made that feedback thing pretty tough .
Maybe as I'm startin' on the back 9,(Why am I channeling Bing Crosby ?) the most recent technologies seem more remote , perhaps too remote for my slowing reach and weakening grasp. Fortunately, I am sublimely content with my imperfect guitars and the relatively simple electronics within my ken . I do, however, keep listening to all kinds of music and do find electronica diverting. I guess I'm looking to be moved to the extent I am by a monochromatic cinematic rendition of "Le Marseillaise" performed by a nasal toned folk singer with badly tuned Stella, backed by a studio band,or a scratchy vinyl recording of Janis, singing "Summertime"! A lot, I know .
Biddlin ;>)/

 

[Biddlin]

I played a gig with a friend from college last night . Not many of us still playin' these days. She describes her style as sweaty, belly rubbin' blues . From skillet-hot to low and mournful, she touched all the bases of human affairs . A contemporary of mine, she still packs her size 4 frame into a low-cut, black sequined size 2 gown and uses every ounce to convey her message . Some things are eternal .
Biddlin ;>)/

 

[dbb]

All the instruments, programs, what-have-you, are merely tools for the musician to use as an artist would use brushes, palette knife, Photoshop, or even their fingers, to convey the artistic intent.

Nothing makes music on its own, as pointed out even the samples have to come from somewhere.

Those computers and gear with enough sounds in them to keep you busy for a long time?

If no artist uses them, they do nothing in and on their own.

Remember, there was a time when the electric guitar was a "new-fangled" oddball instrument.

However, Biddlin's issues about learning to play an instrument are very valid and timely in a day when big name stars in the music industry are the role models for young people and they do not play an instrument other than dragging loops and playing with Ableton or a DJ set-up.

I'm a big believer in school band as a place where kids learn many valuable skills; some about life, some about music. Unfortunately band programs are being cut or are already long gone, particularly at elementary and middle school levels.

http://rapgenius.com/posts/1529-The-importance-of-music-education

"One thing that music education provides for students is creativity. Music provides an outlet of expression that cannot be found in other subjects, such as mathematics, chemistry, or English."

 

[Biddlin]

Kids need physical education and the "core" subjects, but the arts are the glue binding each generation to the future. If we leave no songs or sculpture or poems or paintings, we leave no doors to our worldly time and and essence .
Biddlin ;>)/

 

[sgtbeefheart]

I remember seeing John Mayall at our local hall.

In the same month, we'd had Cream and Hendrix.

John McVie was on bass, and he injected some humour into
his solo by ending it with feedback.

I was surprised when all of the crowd seemed to get it.

He joined F.Mac soon after, and I don't think they employed
such electric trickery.

Of course feedback is a long way from synthetic instruments.

 

[JohnP]

John McVie was on bass, and he injected some humour into
his solo by ending it with feedback.

I was surprised when all of the crowd seemed to get it.

He joined F.Mac soon after, and I don't think they employed
such electric trickery.

Of course feedback is a long way from synthetic instruments.

It's right here, at your toe tips:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaMEdWHiLno"]Fender Runaway Feedback Pedal Demo - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Heket]

Kids need physical education and the "core" subjects, but the arts are the glue binding each generation to the future. If we leave no songs or sculpture or poems or paintings, we leave no doors to our worldly time and and essence .
Biddlin ;>)/

Watch out, rant incoming!

You are so right, Biddlin and David, and it really tees me off to see people sliding the arts under the carpet, as if they are auxiliaries only, a 'hobby' and not worthy of formal study.

Here in the UK the government is planning an education reform to bring us in line with the rest of Europe and their initial plan was to leave out art and music completely from the syllabus. What the fluff! Of course they were shot down, but the fact that they could even think that makes me worry severely for the ignorance of our politicians.

It's bad enough that they always see the arts as the sector they can scavenge from to save elsewhere; yes they need to find money but there are other places to look! The arts have suffered savage cuts in this last budget, in particular the performing arts, and soon enough they will only be for the super-rich who can afford non-subsidised prices while the rest of us can suck it, work hard all day then go home and watch TV.

Without education and exposure, how will new generations learn the intricacies of expression? The beauty and soul that fuels our culture? And this one's especially for the government - what do tourists do when they visit a city? Go to museums, art galleries, maybe watch a play/musical. Abandoning the arts is just about one of the worst things you could do.

Ok, rant over Sorry, this doesn't really relate to the original intent of the thread, but Biddlin's words just sparked something in me.

 

[sgtbeefheart]

I would say that it does relate to this thread, because the
end product of education in art can be just as synthetic as
the art produced by machines.

Someone who is "naturally" drawn to a particular art form is
very different to someone who is educated in the "Arts".

If we take the performing arts as an example, only because it's easiest,
we have a situation where someone who wants to be famous/rich, goes
to a "School" that specialises, where they learn how to dance, sing, act etc..

There is no requirement for a natural inclination or talent in any particular
area, except that of self-promotion, and a "look at me, look at me" attitude.

Many of these people study at these schools, and when they leave, they
will take any job on offer, as long as it's in Showbiz.

Most of them are usually found presenting TV shows, sometimes after being
in a manufactured pop band, or doing TV commercials or being a backing
dancer.

It's not about art, it's about a successful career.

In the area of music who is the "Artist"?

Is it someone who was blown away as a child by hearing music,
and taught themselves to play and write about things they cared
about, or it someone who's pushy parents paid for them to learn
technical skills and music theory.

Does an "Artist" choose which area they want to perform in, or are they
drawn to it?

Theoretically perfect music, pop or whatever can be as sterile as any
synthesized music.

Personally, I'd rather listen to this,
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soXfp6Xx2VE]Little Walter - Juke - YouTube[/ame]

than this,

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDsvZGM1vD8]Rick Wakeman Solo - YouTube[/ame]

 

[iblive]

Personally, I don't like the "techno-pop" music... but at the same time when I here it on the radio. I find I can't stop my toes from tapping. But then I find them tapping while listening to Mozart as well.

Acoustic guitar is one style that really reaches my soul.... Love CSN and occasionally Y. It was listening to those guys on my Woodstock 8-track that pushed my over the top to learn guitar.

I do like ELP and Yes and all the synthesized keyboard that comes with that. (Have seen both in concert)

I do agree with everyone here that's stated we cannot allow the arts to be dismissed from our K-12 schools. I played trombone from 6th-12th grade and loved every minute of it and I do feel that definitely played a part in furthering my love of all forms of music. We played everything from classical to Sousa to The Doors. It was awesome.

 

[dbb]

Theoretically perfect music, pop or whatever can be as sterile as any
synthesized music.

Personally, I'd rather listen to this,
"Little Walter - Juke "

than this,

"Rick Wakeman Solo "

I like them both...but would rather play with Wakeman's band.

I detect a bit of the anti-prog "I'm not an elitist" in this attitude. Somehow blues is better art than prog.

Frankly I AM and elistist and would rather hear a master - on harmonica or multi-keyboards - than a lesser performer no matter what.

And it's ALL showbiz.

 

[Biddlin]

Education cannot manufacture artists, but it can fuel creativity and provide the tools for the artist to "self realise" and then produce . Most of my musical education has been through apprenticeship . My formal musical education came relatively late . I had a guitar lesson at 15 and Intro to Harmony and a beginning piano class in my brush with college . But formal education did expose me to the classical arts and literature, which gave context to math and science for me .
The politicians tell us that we don't need to teach the arts because they are far more accessible to today's kids through TV and online, but too often the message that they receive has more to do with money and status than truth and beauty . That narrow focus, not just in education, but throughout western culture seems to have lead us to college graduates that read and write at eighth grade level and view math and science as mysticism .

(Blame Canada)

I don't believe this trend can or will continue for long. It is not in the nature of people to accept constraint . I think much of the hip-hop music and graffiti art is spawned by glorious youthful rebellion at the limitations society would place on itself and its future and the fact that it has invaded the popular culture will renew our vitality in the arts . But it doesn't hurt (in most so-called democracies)to let your government know that you support a complete curriculum and resent paying for anything less !
Biddlin ;>)/

 

[iblive]

As an adult I took both a music and art appreciation classes at the local community college. I learned quite a bit in both classes and for sure I gained a deeper appreciation of art... paintings, sculpture, etc. Some years later I had the opportunity to take my wife to the Chicago Art Museum when they had a special Monet exhibit in house. While she is a way bigger Monet fan than am I, I cannot deny there was something special about getting to see art that was actually painted by the artist's hand and not just a print. It was pretty cool....

 

[dbb]

As an adult I took both a music and art appreciation classes at the local community college. I learned quite a bit in both classes and for sure I gained a deeper appreciation of art... paintings, sculpture, etc. Some years later I had the opportunity to take my wife to the Chicago Art Museum when they had a special Monet exhibit in house. While she is a way bigger Monet fan than am I, I cannot deny there was something special about getting to see art that was actually painted by the artist's hand and not just a print. It was pretty cool....

We felt the same way at the Van Gough museum in Amsterdam. The real canvasses have so much power and texture not visible in print.