Questions about a “SG serial” website project

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Sheyamax

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Hi everyone,

Matthias from France here. I’ll start with a quick introduction. Throughout my childhood I spent quite a lot of time at my dad's music shop just because I felt comfortable there. In my teens I started playing the guitar. The first electric I owned was a Storm SG, a cheap replica of the original model, followed a few years later by a second-hand 2000 Gibson SG Standard. Some 20 years later, the guitar is still with me. Over the years I have bought, sold and traded quite a few guitars. Through the last few years I have started a collection of vintage and custom shop SGs as they are still my favorite guitars. The 2000 Standard has been joined by a small number of friends from the 60s and the 70s – I believe some Norlin guitars are great and AC/DC is my favorite band. In this endeavor I have tried to educate myself and I have read as much as I could about the history of the guitar, Gibson, the SG, and so on.
Lately I have been particularly interested in the very first Les Pauls New Style produced from the end of 1960 until 1963 – the ones with the Sideways vibrola. As you know the guitar then became known as the SG with the Maestro vibrola. As some very knowledgeable people have noted, the information available in some specialized books such as Duchossoir (1983), Bulli (1989), Lawrence (2008) and Bacon (2015) is helpful but not always very accurate. As far as I know, today’s most valuable source of information on these guitars is a Les Paul Forum thread initiated by forum member’s blueline in 2017.
I have tried to further the research started on this thread and I do believe I have made a few discoveries that might be valuable to those interested in these guitars. For instance, I have identified an unknown late 1960 Les Paul New Model and I have also made a few hypotheses on the many unanswered questions about this guitars – i.e how many were made and where are they now ?
As many of you know, information on the 1958-1960 “burst” Les Pauls is now all over the place, with dozens of books dedicated to the model, the “burst serial” website and so on. However the same can’t be said of the first 1960 - 1961 Les Pauls New Style, with very scarce information available. For the last couple of months I have entertained the idea of building the equivalent of the “burst serial” website for the 1960 – 1961 Les Pauls New Style. A few things prevented me from actually starting it, hence a couple of questions:
1. Would some members of this forum be interested by such an endeavor?
2. For documentation purposes, such a website would require some pictures from individuals, guitar stores, etc. Do you think there would be a need to ask the agreement of every picture owner to repost it on the website? I have checked the “burst serial” website but I’m not sure of what conclusions we can draw from it as I am not very familiar with US copyright infringement legislation.

With many thanks,

Matthias
 

PermissionToLand

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I've created a website for documenting the Gibson SG, called the SG Wiki.

As far as the earliest SG / Les Paul models, there are a few pages with relevant info.

The History page gives a more narrative overview:


In the Dating page, I have a section detailing the earliest known SGs, dating to late 1960:


And finally, the page for the SG Standard details the specifications of each "generation", so to speak:

 

Sheyamax

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Thanks for your post and also for your fantastic work on the SG Wiki. In my opinion it is one of the most thorough sources on these fantastic guitars. I constantly use it in my nerdy activities.
I haven't included it in my post because as great as it is, I think there are important gaps when it comes to the early 60 Les Pauls. For instance, the "Earliest Known SGs" section of the "Dating" page includes 5 guitars. As far as "inked serial" SGs are concerned I have counted 20-ish Standards, a prototype of a Special and also possibly a Custom. Some of them regularly appear, as one has just a few days ago on Les Paul Forum, which makes me believe some of them are still out there. Do you think furhtering this section together could be a possibility?
I am actually glad you wrote because I had a couple of questions for you.
First, have you ask the permission to use the pictures to all of the stores they come from (i.e. Davidson's, Guitar Point, Chicago Music Exchange and so on)?
Second, do you know where the picture of 0 8765 comes from? With this purple background I'm assuming it could be Vintage Guitars Magazine but I'm not sure. I am asking because this specific guitar, today the second earliest Les Paul (SG) Standard known after 0 8749, has been through the hands of a very disreputable parisian dealer, which makes me question its authenticity.
 

PermissionToLand

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Thanks for your post and also for your fantastic work on the SG Wiki. In my opinion it is one of the most thorough sources on these fantastic guitars. I constantly use it in my nerdy activities.
I haven't included it in my post because as great as it is, I think there are important gaps when it comes to the early 60 Les Pauls. For instance, the "Earliest Known SGs" section of the "Dating" page includes 5 guitars. As far as "inked serial" SGs are concerned I have counted 20-ish Standards, a prototype of a Special and also possibly a Custom. Some of them regularly appear, as one has just a few days ago on Les Paul Forum, which makes me believe some of them are still out there. Do you think furhtering this section together could be a possibility?
I am actually glad you wrote because I had a couple of questions for you.
First, have you ask the permission to use the pictures to all of the stores they come from (i.e. Davidson's, Guitar Point, Chicago Music Exchange and so on)?
Second, do you know where the picture of 0 8765 comes from? With this purple background I'm assuming it could be Vintage Guitars Magazine but I'm not sure. I am asking because this specific guitar, today the second earliest Les Paul (SG) Standard known after 0 8749, has been through the hands of a very disreputable parisian dealer, which makes me question its authenticity.
The 1960 Special Prototype is detailed on the SG Special page:


If you've found other 1960 serial number examples, please let me know where. You're welcome to add more info to the wiki. I'm thinking maybe I should move the 1960 Standards to the SG standard page instead, like I did with the '60 Special.

I checked out the LP forum and this thread seems to have a lot of info that could be added:


As far as the pictures go, it's fair use because I'm not making any profit off it, it's purely educational. But I do try to name the source for the image in its description.

I don't recall where I got the pictures of 0 8765, sorry. Other than the dealer's reputation, what seems questionable about that guitar to you?
 

Sheyamax

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Thanks for your reply! I’ll update what blueline found a few years ago. Here are the earliest known SGs so far:


1. 0 8749
0 8749_4.jpg

This one was on the market last year as part of the “Gibson Certified Vintage” program but then disappeared of the website so Im unsure where it is now.

2. 0 8765
0 8765_1.png

This one was sold 10 years ago or so on Reverb by Matt’s Guitar Shop, a parisian dealer known for having forged several vintage guitars. The guitar seems to have been featured in Vintage Guitars Magazine. I would be more confident about the authenticity of the guitar if it was featured in the magazine before it was sold by Matt.

3. 0 8776
0 8776_1.jpg

This one is on sale for a large amount of money at Davidson’s Well Strung Guitars.


4. 0 8779
0 8779_1.jpg

This one belonged to a Les Paul Forum member some years ago.

5. 0 8869
0 8869_1.png

This one was sold by Guitar Point some years ago.

6. 0 8875
0 8875_1.png

This one was sold on Reverb a few years ago.

7. 0 8877
0 8877_6.png

This one was sold by The Music Locker a couple of years ago.

8. 0 8878
0 8878_1.png

This one belonged to a Les Paul Forum member some years ago.

9. 0 8890
0 8890_1.png

This one can often be seen on the road in the hands of a guitar player named Joe Bonamassa!

10. 0 9037
0 9037_1.png

This one has been heavily modified and is for sale at Rudy’s Guitars.
 

Sheyamax

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11. 0 9939
0 9939_8.jpg

This one was renumbered and sold by Gruhn Guitars some years ago.

12. 0 9971
0 9971.png

This one is mentioned in Robb Lawrence's book and could be one of the earliest Customs.

13. 010183
010183_1.jpg

This one is a prototype of a Special and is for sale at Davidson’s Well Strung Guitars.

14. 011174
011174_3.png

This one was sold by ATB Guitars some years ago.

15. 011186
011186_2.png

This one was sold by Gary’s Classic Guitars to a Les Paul Forum member a few years ago.

16. 011189
011189_1.png

There is not a lot of information available on this guitar.

17. 011190
011190_4.png

This one was sold by OK Guitars last year.

18. 011193
011193_1.jpg

This one is on sale at Halkan’s Rockhouse. This one has a “smooth” body-neck joint found on later guitars.

19. 011485
011485_1.jpg

This was had a reglued neck and was sold by Gruhn Guitars some years ago.

20. 012095
012095_1.jpeg

This one was discovered by a Les Paul Forum member a few days ago.


Other:
-0 56xx: mentioned by a Les Paul Forum member but it has 1961 specs so it could be 56xx rather than 0 56xx
-010634: this one belonged to a Les Paul Forum member some years ago. It has been heavily modified and renumbered. There is not a lot of information available on this guitar.
-011185: there is not a lot of information available on this guitar.
-012104: mentioned by a Les Paul Forum member but it could be 2104 rather than 01204
-1 1054: mentioned by a My Les Paul Forum member as an early black 1961 Les Paul SG Standard.
-Early 1961 guitars seem to share late 1960 specs. For in instance Standards 2104, 2180 and 2224 and Customs 3729 and 3749 have long pickguards and “stepped” body-neck joints.


Please let me know if you find any mistakes and feel free to share your knowledge on these guitars!
 

Mark Seven

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Hi everyone,

Matthias from France here. I’ll start with a quick introduction. Throughout my childhood I spent quite a lot of time at my dad's music shop just because I felt comfortable there. In my teens I started playing the guitar. The first electric I owned was a Storm SG, a cheap replica of the original model, followed a few years later by a second-hand 2000 Gibson SG Standard. Some 20 years later, the guitar is still with me. Over the years I have bought, sold and traded quite a few guitars. Through the last few years I have started a collection of vintage and custom shop SGs as they are still my favorite guitars. The 2000 Standard has been joined by a small number of friends from the 60s and the 70s – I believe some Norlin guitars are great and AC/DC is my favorite band. In this endeavor I have tried to educate myself and I have read as much as I could about the history of the guitar, Gibson, the SG, and so on.
Lately I have been particularly interested in the very first Les Pauls New Style produced from the end of 1960 until 1963 – the ones with the Sideways vibrola. As you know the guitar then became known as the SG with the Maestro vibrola. As some very knowledgeable people have noted, the information available in some specialized books such as Duchossoir (1983), Bulli (1989), Lawrence (2008) and Bacon (2015) is helpful but not always very accurate. As far as I know, today’s most valuable source of information on these guitars is a Les Paul Forum thread initiated by forum member’s blueline in 2017.
I have tried to further the research started on this thread and I do believe I have made a few discoveries that might be valuable to those interested in these guitars. For instance, I have identified an unknown late 1960 Les Paul New Model and I have also made a few hypotheses on the many unanswered questions about this guitars – i.e how many were made and where are they now ?
As many of you know, information on the 1958-1960 “burst” Les Pauls is now all over the place, with dozens of books dedicated to the model, the “burst serial” website and so on. However the same can’t be said of the first 1960 - 1961 Les Pauls New Style, with very scarce information available. For the last couple of months I have entertained the idea of building the equivalent of the “burst serial” website for the 1960 – 1961 Les Pauls New Style. A few things prevented me from actually starting it, hence a couple of questions:
1. Would some members of this forum be interested by such an endeavor?
2. For documentation purposes, such a website would require some pictures from individuals, guitar stores, etc. Do you think there would be a need to ask the agreement of every picture owner to repost it on the website? I have checked the “burst serial” website but I’m not sure of what conclusions we can draw from it as I am not very familiar with US copyright infringement legislation.

With many thanks,

Matthias
You failed to identify what information in the four books you referenced is "not very
accurate." That would be a good place to start. I found those books to be invaluable.
 

papagayo

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Welcome here, you have the same kind of job than your dad but with vintage guitars, right ? With passion it' s better.
 

Sheyamax

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You failed to identify what information in the four books you referenced is "not very
accurate." That would be a good place to start. I found those books to be invaluable.
You're absolutely right, I haven't been very thorough because I think blueline has already made a compelling argument in his thread. I should have started by saying that those books are indeed invaluable, but a point can be made that these authors treat the Les Paul Standards from late 1960 to 1963 as a whole, with no particular emphasis on the early ones. Sometimes they don't even mention their existence.
For instance, Duchossoir writes that "at the end of 1960, Gibson took the decision to proceed with a complete overhauling of its Les Paul line which lead to the introduction in early 1961, of the new sharp double cutaway versions which took the SG name by the end o 1963" (1983, p. 84).
Lawrence features 0 8779 and 0 9971 but simply writes that "earlier appointments to the solidbody line continued to the '60s" (2008, p. 266).
As already noted by blueline, Bacon (2015) does not provide a single photo of a late '60 in his book.
Welcome here, you have the same kind of job than your dad but with vintage guitars, right ? With passion it' s better.
Thank you very much for your welcome! I am a social scientist but the guitar thing might indeed be a plan b if things go wrong.
 

papagayo

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You're absolutely right, I haven't been very thorough because I think blueline has already made a compelling argument in his thread. I should have started by saying that those books are indeed invaluable, but a point can be made that these authors treat the Les Paul Standards from late 1960 to 1963 as a whole, with no particular emphasis on the early ones. Sometimes they don't even mention their existence.
For instance, Duchossoir writes that "at the end of 1960, Gibson took the decision to proceed with a complete overhauling of its Les Paul line which lead to the introduction in early 1961, of the new sharp double cutaway versions which took the SG name by the end o 1963" (1983, p. 84).
Lawrence features 0 8779 and 0 9971 but simply writes that "earlier appointments to the solidbody line continued to the '60s" (2008, p. 266).
As already noted by blueline, Bacon (2015) does not provide a single photo of a late '60 in his book.

Thank you very much for your welcome! I am a social scientist but the guitar thing might indeed be a plan b if things go wrong.
What do you call social scientist ? For the B plan be paccient, if you see what I mean,

Temp 4841297...jpg
 

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One observation I have noted for a while now, especially with the continual data and examples that can be found around the internet, is that the total numbers made by Gibson for various models in various years don't always seem correct. I personally have seen a model of theirs nearly as many times as the stated amount made. No science or proof behind it, just an observation to consider.

Also, you should try to track down some of the Gibson ledgers that are out there to see if you can find ones with SG specific information that would be very definitive. I advise scouring the internet and talking to various big dealers to ask if they have any to share or who else you might reach out to to ask.
 

PermissionToLand

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11. 0 9939
View attachment 56896

This one was renumbered and sold by Gruhn Guitars some years ago.

12. 0 9971
View attachment 56897

This one is mentioned in Robb Lawrence's book and could be one of the earliest Customs.

13. 010183
View attachment 56898

This one is a prototype of a Special and is for sale at Davidson’s Well Strung Guitars.

14. 011174
View attachment 56899

This one was sold by ATB Guitars some years ago.

15. 011186
View attachment 56900

This one was sold by Gary’s Classic Guitars to a Les Paul Forum member a few years ago.

16. 011189
View attachment 56901

There is not a lot of information available on this guitar.

17. 011190
View attachment 56902

This one was sold by OK Guitars last year.

18. 011193
View attachment 56903

This one is on sale at Halkan’s Rockhouse. This one has a “smooth” body-neck joint found on later guitars.

19. 011485
View attachment 56904

This was had a reglued neck and was sold by Gruhn Guitars some years ago.

20. 012095
View attachment 56905

This one was discovered by a Les Paul Forum member a few days ago.


Other:
-0 56xx: mentioned by a Les Paul Forum member but it has 1961 specs so it could be 56xx rather than 0 56xx
-010634: this one belonged to a Les Paul Forum member some years ago. It has been heavily modified and renumbered. There is not a lot of information available on this guitar.
-011185: there is not a lot of information available on this guitar.
-012104: mentioned by a Les Paul Forum member but it could be 2104 rather than 01204
-1 1054: mentioned by a My Les Paul Forum member as an early black 1961 Les Paul SG Standard.
-Early 1961 guitars seem to share late 1960 specs. For in instance Standards 2104, 2180 and 2224 and Customs 3729 and 3749 have long pickguards and “stepped” body-neck joints.


Please let me know if you find any mistakes and feel free to share your knowledge on these guitars!

Hmm, maybe 1960 builds should have their own page on the wiki...

Sucks to hear that about Matt's Guitar Shop. I have an Angus Young Prototype from their shop listed on the wiki. Maybe that warrants some new scrutiny...
 

Sheyamax

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One observation I have noted for a while now, especially with the continual data and examples that can be found around the internet, is that the total numbers made by Gibson for various models in various years don't always seem correct. I personally have seen a model of theirs nearly as many times as the stated amount made. No science or proof behind it, just an observation to consider.

Also, you should try to track down some of the Gibson ledgers that are out there to see if you can find ones with SG specific information that would be very definitive. I advise scouring the internet and talking to various big dealers to ask if they have any to share or who else you might reach out to to ask.
Thanks for your observation Derrick! Well the question of the number of 1960 Les Paul SGs produced is still an open one. Unfortunately the ledgers for 1960 have been lost, which leave us to hypotheses.

Tony Bacon has estimated that out of the 635 Les Paul Standards (old and new style) produced in 1960, 11/12ths, meaning 53, were new models Les Pauls SGs. According to former Gibson employees, back in the days guitars were produced in batches consisting of 35-ish guitars. When it comes to 1960 builds there is a general agreement that they have been produced in two separate batches. I think this agreement is not accurate as known guitars lead us to think there were at least four batches:
*Batch 1 : 0 8749 ; 0 8765 ; 0 8776 ; 0 8779
*Batch 2 : 0 8869 ; 0 8875 ; 0 8877 ; 0 8878 ; 0 8890 ; 0 9037
*Batch 3 : 011174 ; 011185 ; 011186 ; 011189 ; 011190 ; 011193
*Batch 4 : 012095 ; 012104
From here I think there are two possibilities:
*Either 1960 Les Paul SGs were produced in smaller volumes than other guitars as they were a new model. In this case most of them might have been discovered and Bacon's estimation might have been on the high side.
*Either 1960 Les Pauls SGs were produced in regular volumes. In this case a lot of them remain to be found and Bacon's estimation may be low.
The last alternative is quite exciting!

Hmm, maybe 1960 builds should have their own page on the wiki...

Sucks to hear that about Matt's Guitar Shop. I have an Angus Young Prototype from their shop listed on the wiki. Maybe that warrants some new scrutiny...
I think a "1960 builds" page on the wiki is a great idea!
As for Matt's Guitar Shop, there is some strong evidence that a lot of guitars that he advertised as "prototypes" were actually forged instruments.
 
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PermissionToLand

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Thanks for your observation Derrick! Well the question of the number of 1960 Les Paul SGs produced is still an open one. Unfortunately the ledgers for 1960 have been lost, which leave us to hypotheses.

Tony Bacon has estimated that out of the 635 Les Paul Standards (old and new style) produced in 1960, 11/12ths, meaning 53, were new models Les Pauls SGs. According to former Gibson employees, back in the days guitars were produced in batches consisting of 35-ish guitars. When it comes to 1960 builds there is a general agreement that they have been produced in two separate batches. I think this agreement is not accurate as known guitars lead us to think there were at least four batches:
*Batch 1 : 0 8749 ; 0 8765 ; 0 8776 ; 0 8779
*Batch 2 : 0 8869 ; 0 8875 ; 0 8877 ; 0 8878 ; 0 8890 ; 0 9037
*Batch 3 : 011174 ; 011185 ; 011186 ; 011189 ; 011190 ; 011193
*Batch 4 : 012095 ; 012104
From here I think there are two possibilities:
*Either 1960 Les Paul SGs were produced in smaller volumes than other guitars as they were a new model. In this case most of them might have been discovered and Bacon's estimation might have been on the high side.
*Either 1960 Les Pauls SGs were produced in regular volumes. In this case a lot of them remain to be found and Bacon's estimation may be low.
The last alternative is quite exciting!


I think a "1960 builds" page on the wiki is a great idea!
As for Matt's Guitar Shop, there is some strong evidence that a lot of guitars that he advertised as "prototypes" were actually forged instruments.
Here's a rough draft:


Looking closer, I think the Angus Signature prototype seems authentic, as it has a 3-piece body, whereas the production version was 2-piece, ruling out it being a modified production model. On the other hand, all the other details are correct. So if it were built from scratch as a counterfeit, it would be a very impressive one.
 

Sheyamax

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Here's a rough draft:


Looking closer, I think the Angus Signature prototype seems authentic, as it has a 3-piece body, whereas the production version was 2-piece, ruling out it being a modified production model. On the other hand, all the other details are correct. So if it were built from scratch as a counterfeit, it would be a very impressive one.
The draft looks very good ! Thank you for this great update.
Thanks also for your closer scrutinty of the Angus Young Signature prototype. I'm not saying it is what happened with this specific guitar but one of Matt's (from Matt Guitar Shop) common practices was to say that guitars which could have had a vague involvement with a specific artist or brand were "artists' models" or "prototype models", sometimes forging false documentation, and pricing the instruments accordingly.
As a sidenote, what is the literal "Les Paul / SG" guitar on your profile picture ? This design looks beautiful !
 

PermissionToLand

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The draft looks very good ! Thank you for this great update.
Thanks also for your closer scrutinty of the Angus Young Signature prototype. I'm not saying it is what happened with this specific guitar but one of Matt's (from Matt Guitar Shop) common practices was to say that guitars which could have had a vague involvement with a specific artist or brand were "artists' models" or "prototype models", sometimes forging false documentation, and pricing the instruments accordingly.
As a sidenote, what is the literal "Les Paul / SG" guitar on your profile picture ? This design looks beautiful !

That's a guitar I built myself! I have a ton of other ideas, but no access to a shop anymore, sadly.

It drives me nuts how often sellers lie about guitars. The insane stories they cook up sometimes are just baffling. I've seen people call a bone stock SG Standard some kind of rare prototype and ask 10X what it's worth. But usually those are just random sellers on Ebay and Reverb. For an actual store to be doing that and forging documentation is something much more serious. I hope anyone who has been fooled by that shop is made aware and contacts authorities.
 

Sheyamax

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That's a guitar I built myself! I have a ton of other ideas, but no access to a shop anymore, sadly.

It drives me nuts how often sellers lie about guitars. The insane stories they cook up sometimes are just baffling. I've seen people call a bone stock SG Standard some kind of rare prototype and ask 10X what it's worth. But usually those are just random sellers on Ebay and Reverb. For an actual store to be doing that and forging documentation is something much more serious. I hope anyone who has been fooled by that shop is made aware and contacts authorities.
You are right, the main difference here is that it was an actual store. It's been a big thing in France, the story has been covered by respected journalists and many of the buyers Matt has fooled have sued. Unfortunately these lawsuits are still ongoing, Matt has opened a new shop and this story is overall not very well known overseas.
It's a shame you don't have an access to a shop. It there somewhere I can get to read and know more about this beautiful build?
 

PermissionToLand

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You are right, the main difference here is that it was an actual store. It's been a big thing in France, the story has been covered by respected journalists and many of the buyers Matt has fooled have sued. Unfortunately these lawsuits are still ongoing, Matt has opened a new shop and this story is overall not very well known overseas.
It's a shame you don't have an access to a shop. It there somewhere I can get to read and know more about this beautiful build?

 

Sheyamax

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Thanks for this link. I've read it and I must say I'm very impressed by your design and build!
To come back to the subject matter of this thread, Les Paul Forum member Blueline has posted a message on another thread and I've asked him if he could help us document the late 1960 Les Paul New Style.
 


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