Questions about a “SG serial” website project

[Blueline]

Second, do you know where the picture of 0 8765 comes from? With this purple background I'm assuming it could be Vintage Guitars Magazine but I'm not sure. I am asking because this specific guitar, today the second earliest Les Paul (SG) Standard known after 0 8749, has been through the hands of a very disreputable parisian dealer, which makes me question its authenticity.

I can comment on 0-8765. The pictures come from the Reverb sale information from around 2015. That guitar had an unique tenon cover that wrapped around the end of the finger board with two little points echoing the double pointy horns. I contacted the seller at the time and received a few pictures from Matts Guitar shop in Paris. One thing I always request is a photo of the serial number if it is not evident. The same tenon cover appeared on one other guitar, 0-8869. So the cover is not likely a one off. I did not think to get the pot code but I did see that the control cavity has an detail confirming its orginality as only the 5 digit serial numbered guitars showed this detail. This one just might be my favourite and i wish i had purchased it.

Can you specifiy what details would make one question its authenticity?


Thanks Sheyamax for putting together. I think it is important to have the details especially if anyone is going to purchase one.

PS: The available information on the pot codes for the 5 digit serial numbers including 0-8749 date to July 1960.

 

[Sheyamax]

I can comment on 0-8765. The pictures come from the Reverb sale information from around 2015. That guitar had an unique tenon cover that wrapped around the end of the finger board with two little points echoing the double pointy horns. I contacted the seller at the time and received a few pictures from Matts Guitar shop in Paris. One thing I always request is a photo of the serial number if it is not evident. The same tenon cover appeared on one other guitar, 0-8869. So the cover is not likely a one off. I did not think to get the pot code but I did see that the control cavity has an detail confirming its orginality as only the 5 digit serial numbered guitars showed this detail. This one just might be my favourite and i wish i had purchased it.

Can you specifiy what details would make one question its authenticity?


Thanks Sheyamax for putting together. I think it is important to have the details especially if anyone is going to purchase one.

PS: The available information on the pot codes for the 5 digit serial numbers including 0-8749 date to July 1960.

Thanks Blueline for this very valuable information!
As stated earlier it's the fact that 0 8765 has been "discovered" by Matt's Guitar Shop/Matthieu Lucas that makes me question its authenticity. It is not a very well-known fact outside of France but five years ago or so it was uncovered by the French guitar community that Matthieu Lucas has been forging instruments, documentation, inventing prestigious genealogies to regular guitars, but also running a ponzi scheme. Here's a the testimony - in French - of Julien Bitoun, a well-respected guitar journalist that used to work with Matthieu Lucas :
He shut down his operation and reopened another confidential showroom a couple years ago but lawsuits are still going on.
That being said it seems like the specs of 0 8765 look right, but I would be more confident in the originality of the guitar if there was a known circulation before Matt's Guitar Shop.

 

[Blueline]

When you say "orginality" do you mean you think it is a forgery or some parts are not authentic?
I checked my notes and my contact with Matts guitar was actually in 2016. He sent me the photos that asked about and answered my questions. Popular lore stated that these models were first produced in 1961. The person doing the forgery would have to know the specs and even in 2016, few "experts" knew anything abouts these guitars.
Matt stated that he showed that guitar to André Duchaussoir (Gibson Electrics book) and he thought it was the earliest one he has ever seen. They both thought he was a "prototype" because of the features of the guitar were quite unique. But of course, bien sur, since 2016, we know a lot more and have a good idea of the specs.

PS: The only suspect guitar is 011193 that needs further examination as it does not conform to spec.

 

[Sheyamax]

Thanks for checking your notes - and for your attempt of writing in French!
You have a strong point and, considering the specs and the dates and the knowledge back then, it is unlikely that the guitar was forged. I am only saying that, knowing the questionable practices of Matthieu Lucas when it comes to dealing guitars, it would be good to know a prior circulation of the guitar. That being said ithis one might well be 100% original/authentic.
What makes you question 011193? Is it the smooth body-neck joint?

 

[PermissionToLand]

I found the Reverb listing I got one of the pictures of 0 8765 from:

https://Reverb(dot)com/item/2540247-gibson-sg-les-paul-1960-one-of-the-first-one-made-kind-of-prototype

Edit: this forum doesn't allow links anymore?

 

[Blueline]

Thanks for checking your notes - and for your attempt of writing in French!
You have a strong point and, considering the specs and the dates and the knowledge back then, it is unlikely that the guitar was forged. I am only saying that, knowing the questionable practices of Matthieu Lucas when it comes to dealing guitars, it would be good to know a prior circulation of the guitar. That being said ithis one might well be 100% original/authentic.
What makes you question 011193? Is it the smooth body-neck joint?

I can only see the front and back photos on their website. I could not make out the serial number as it was too blurry. Did you get a better picture? The TRC is not original and looks the ones from current USA models. The back neck joint is not consistent with 1960 or any of the early 1961 models. it could indicate a repair. So more pictures would help. We need pictures of:
-serial number inked on
-front and rear pickup cavities including PAF stickers
-close up of that neck join
-pot codes
-control cavity
-brown case

 

[Sheyamax]

I found the Reverb listing I got one of the pictures of 0 8765 from:

https://Reverb(dot)com/item/2540247-gibson-sg-les-paul-1960-one-of-the-first-one-made-kind-of-prototype

Edit: this forum doesn't allow links anymore?

Thanks for the link! Here is another picture of 0 8765 that Blueline posted some years ago:

As you can see there is a purple background similar to the ones used for pictures featured in Vintage Guitar Magazine:


This makes me wonder if 0 8765 has ever been features in a magazine before Matt sold it in 2015, which would be a good thing. Unfortunately I don't have access to the archives of the magazine to explore this hypothesis.

 

[Sheyamax]

I can only see the front and back photos on their website. I could not make out the serial number as it was too blurry. Did you get a better picture? The TRC is not original and looks the ones from current USA models. The back neck joint is not consistent with 1960 or any of the early 1961 models. it could indicate a repair. So more pictures would help. We need pictures of:
-serial number inked on
-front and rear pickup cavities including PAF stickers
-close up of that neck join
-pot codes
-control cavity
-brown case

Here is the ad of the guitar on the "Vintage & Rare" platform.
I called Halkans and here are a few more info on the guitar:

-TRC is unoriginal
-Caps are unoriginal
-Pickups are original PAFs coming from a 1960 ES 175
-Pots read 1346043
-Case is black and yellow - some other 1960 LPs such as 011190 have been seen with a black an yellow case while 1961 LPs have been seen with a brown and pink one such as 2104 and 2224

The shop seeling the guitar provided me with additional pictures if needed. What do you guys think?

 

[PermissionToLand]

Thanks for the link! Here is another picture of 0 8765 that Blueline posted some years ago:
View attachment 57058
As you can see there is a purple background similar to the ones used for pictures featured in Vintage Guitar Magazine:
View attachment 57059

This makes me wonder if 0 8765 has ever been features in a magazine before Matt sold it in 2015, which would be a good thing. Unfortunately I don't have access to the archives of the magazine to explore this hypothesis.

Yeah I couldn't find the source of that one. I probably got it from Blueline.

 

[PermissionToLand]

I can only see the front and back photos on their website. I could not make out the serial number as it was too blurry. Did you get a better picture? The TRC is not original and looks the ones from current USA models. The back neck joint is not consistent with 1960 or any of the early 1961 models. it could indicate a repair. So more pictures would help. We need pictures of:
-serial number inked on
-front and rear pickup cavities including PAF stickers
-close up of that neck join
-pot codes
-control cavity
-brown case

The TRC looks like a late '60s or '70s style to me; thin white layer with very little bevel. Doesn't look modern to me, I'd say pre-1980.

1968 Les Paul:

I've seen that smooth neck joint on a mid-61 build before:



It couldn't be a repaired version of the 1960 heel because of that body overlap lip. You can see in the link Sheyamax posted that the wood grain continues from the body onto the lip, in one piece.

Here is the ad of the guitar on the "Vintage & Rare" platform.
I called Halkans and here are a few more info on the guitar:

-TRC is unoriginal
-Caps are unoriginal
-Pickups are original PAFs coming from a 1960 ES 175
-Pots read 1346043
-Case is black and yellow - some other 1960 LPs such as 011190 have been seen with a black an yellow case while 1961 LPs have been seen with a brown and pink one such as 2104 and 2224

The shop seeling the guitar provided me with additional pictures if needed. What do you guys think?

It seems to me like an early/mid 1961 build.

I think it just got an old batch of pots. I've seen guitars with pots dating a year older than the rest of the features. In fact, quite a few 1967 builds have pots dating to 1965 for some reason. They must have found an old forgotten box of pots in 1967 because it's strangely common. But that's an outlier.

 

[Sheyamax]

It seems to me like an early/mid 1961 build.

What is strange is that it still has some of the late 1960 specs such as the inked serial, the long pickguard and the pots.
The "smooth" body-neck joint does not make sense to me as 4 digits serial early 1961 up to 8876 have the "stepped" one.
Do you think Gibson might have started to experiment with joint variations with 011193?

 

[Blueline]

Here is the ad of the guitar on the "Vintage & Rare" platform.
I called Halkans and here are a few more info on the guitar:

-TRC is unoriginal
-Caps are unoriginal
-Pickups are original PAFs coming from a 1960 ES 175
-Pots read 1346043
-Case is black and yellow - some other 1960 LPs such as 011190 have been seen with a black an yellow case while 1961 LPs have been seen with a brown and pink one such as 2104 and 2224

The shop seeling the guitar provided me with additional pictures if needed. What do you guys think?

Thanks for this information and matches the pictures the seller sent me. The replaced caps are bumble bee and the wiring is not consitent with the otheres. On the front besides the TRC there is a gap between the nut and the headstock, maybe a nut replacement, the guard looks good but the ABR-1 bridge looks to be a replacement. The plating is peeling off and underneath there is evidence of gold plating.

On the back, the serial number is very clear with no "C" for zero. However, the font is much wider than the other LPs. The PAFS have intact stickers but the pickup rings are not original.

Did you get a picture of the case? Please post your photos.

Given the extent of replaced parts, I am not convinced at this point what we are looking at.

 

[PermissionToLand]

What is strange is that it still has some of the late 1960 specs such as the inked serial, the long pickguard and the pots.
The "smooth" body-neck joint does not make sense to me as 4 digits serial early 1961 up to 8876 have the "stepped" one.
Do you think Gibson might have started to experiment with joint variations with 011193?

The long pickguard was used into early 1961. I'm not an expert on serials, but Gibson rarely made changes cleanly or on the first day of a new year. I think I recall inked serial numbers on early 1961 builds but don't quote me on that. Also, I'm not sure if that's inked or stamped. The black grain filler used on SGs can make it hard to tell from just a picture.

The 6-digits suggest 1961 as well. I would need to look at more early '61 builds to nail down exactly when that heel design first appeared, but in my research for the wiki, I'd at least seen it as early as mid '61.

 

[Sheyamax]

The long pickguard was used into early 1961. I'm not an expert on serials, but Gibson rarely made changes cleanly or on the first day of a new year. I think I recall inked serial numbers on early 1961 builds but don't quote me on that. Also, I'm not sure if that's inked or stamped. The black grain filler used on SGs can make it hard to tell from just a picture.

The 6-digits suggest 1961 as well. I would need to look at more early '61 builds to nail down exactly when that heel design first appeared, but in my research for the wiki, I'd at least seen it as early as mid '61.

I have seen long pickguards used as late as 1962, such as on 79862. You are right on "inked" or at least "old system" serial numbers on early 1961 Gibsons. As far as LPSG are concerned, there's at least one early 1961 with the old system serial number, 1 1054, even though there are doubts on the guitar and no pictures of the heel.
I have first seen a smooth heel design on the mid 1961 13016 (which is a "new system" serial number), the other 4 and even 5 digits serial early 1961 that I know of (from 2104 to 10998) having the stepped heel design.

Blueline, here are a few of the pictures the seller of 011193 provided me with.



The guitar has already been sold by another music shop in Sweden, it can be seen in its case here.

 

[Blueline]

Thanks for the photos. I went back to my data base and found 35 LP "new" guitars ranging from serial number 131 to 8556. This range also included the ones you mentioned, 2104, 2105 and 2106. None of these had the smooth heel . They all had the 60 style step. The majority also had brown cases and long guards. The first smooth heel appears in my database at 11784 and is this becomes the dominate join for the rest of the year. So somewhere between the late 4 digit serial number and onset of the 5 digits is when the smooth heel started.
The general rule is that old parts and design can appear later but new new parts cannot appear earlier such as the smooth heel.

To get an idea of when in the year the change happened, I checked some information from Gibson's ledger pictures. The ledgerpicture that I had shows that the guitars were listed as "LP new" logged in in March 61 in the 6100 range. Another ledgerpictures shows LPs in the serial number range 15001 and on, the "new " is dropped and these Les Pauls are simply noted as a "LP". These guitars are logged in April and May 1961. I have a pic of #15017 that shipped april 4th 1961 with a nice smooth heel. My guess is the smooth heel came out pretty earlier after the the 3 and 4 digit run around April.
Finally, the linked picture shows a nonoriginal case black case, another red flag. The give away is that the case does not have the pad for the sideways on the upper lid that is standard for all Les Pauls with a sideways vibrato whether brown or black.
Therefore 011193 is not likely what it claims to be.

 

[Sheyamax]

Thanks for the photos. I went back to my data base and found 35 LP "new" guitars ranging from serial number 131 to 8556. This range also included the ones you mentioned, 2104, 2105 and 2106. None of these had the smooth heel . They all had the 60 style step. The majority also had brown cases and long guards. The first smooth heel appears in my database at 11784 and is this becomes the dominate join for the rest of the year. So somewhere between the late 4 digit serial number and onset of the 5 digits is when the smooth heel started.
The general rule is that old parts and design can appear later but new new parts cannot appear earlier such as the smooth heel.

To get an idea of when in the year the change happened, I checked some information from Gibson's ledger pictures. The ledgerpicture that I had shows that the guitars were listed as "LP new" logged in in March 61 in the 6100 range. Another ledgerpictures shows LPs in the serial number range 15001 and on, the "new " is dropped and these Les Pauls are simply noted as a "LP". These guitars are logged in April and May 1961. I have a pic of #15017 that shipped april 4th 1961 with a nice smooth heel. My guess is the smooth heel came out pretty earlier after the the 3 and 4 digit run around April.
Finally, the linked picture shows a nonoriginal case black case, another red flag. The give away is that the case does not have the pad for the sideways on the upper lid that is standard for all Les Pauls with a sideways vibrato whether brown or black.
Therefore 011193 is not likely what it claims to be.

Thanks so much for this useful information! Out of personal curiosity: do you have more info on early 1961 LP "new", especially from 131 to the 2xxx range?

 

[Blueline]

Thanks so much for this useful information! Out of personal curiosity: do you have more info on early 1961 LP "new", especially from 131 to the 2xxx range?

I have picture-info for 17 LPs in the 2000 range and one 3 digit, #131. I personally inspected 131 at a shop in London to confirm the serial number. It was in poor condition but had all the 1960 specs including the blank TRC. The next one in my data base is 2098 witht the rest ranging from 2104 to 2238. Number 2180 and 2225 had a black cases but most had the brown. The ad for #2106 proclaimed "Gibson Les Paul (SG), Standard with Sideways Vibrola 1961 Cherry 1960 Spec with Original Brown hard case". This one was the only other with a plain truss rod cover. All, of course had the correct heel and long guard. These1961 guitars are essentially the same as the 1960 model. If you want a 1960, then these 4 digits should do just fine and they had real PAFS.

 

[Sheyamax]

Thanks Blueline! As late 1960 and early 1961 LPs are basically the same guitars I’ll continue to reference the 3 or 4 digits serial numbers Standards (“1961 specs” are quite set with early 5 digits serial numbers.) Please feel free to contribute if you have more info on these guitars!
For practical purposes I’ll first reference actually known guitars and then the ones theoretically existing with no visual evidence.

1. 131

This one is similar to a late 1960, is in poor condition and has recently been sold by Denmark Street Guitars. I’m unsure whether it is actually 131 but Blueline will correct me if I’m wrong.

2. 2104

This one is similar to a late 1960 except for the Les Paul trc. It is in good condition.

3. 2122

This one is similar to a late 1960 except for the Les Paul trc, the short guard and the black case. It is in good condition except from one changed tuner. It is in my possession and I will introduce it in a separate post soon!

4. 2180

This one is similar to a late 1960 except for the Les Paul trc and the black case. It is in good condition except for small holes drilled for a former vibrola. It has been sold by Southside Guitars recently.

5. 2224

This one is similar to a late 1960 except for the Les Paul trc. It is in good condition except for four repaired tuners. It has been sold by Guitar Point recently.

6. 6676

This one is similar to a late 1960 except for the Les Paul trc and the short guard. It is in good condition and has a stoptail installed.

7. 7692

This one is similar to a late 1960 except for the Les Paul trc and the short guard. It is in poor condition and has a lot of replaced parts. It has been sold by Chicago Music Exchange.

8. 7716

This one is similar to a late 1960 except for the Les Paul trc and the short guard. It is in good condition except for a neck reset. It is for sale at Miami Vintage Guitars.

9. 77xx

This one is similar to a late 1960 except for the Les Paul trc and the short guard. It is in poor condition and has a lot of replaced parts. It has been sold by Guitare Collection.

 

[Sheyamax]

Known 3 or 4 digits serial numbers with no visual evidence of 1961 LPs Standards are:
1. 184 has been referenced by Walter Carter
2. 2098 has been mentioned by Blueline
3. 2105 has been mentioned by Blueline
4. 2106 has been mentioned by Blueline
5. 2225 has been mentioned by Blueline
6. 2238 has been mentioned by Blueline
7. 6162 has been logged in the 1961 Gibson ledger
8. 6163 has been logged in the 1961 Gibson ledger
9. 6164 has been logged in the 1961 Gibson ledger
10. 6165 has been logged in the 1961 Gibson ledger
11. 6166 has been logged in the 1961 Gibson ledger
12. 6167 has been logged in the 1961 Gibson ledger
13. 6168 has been logged in the 1961 Gibson ledger
14. 6744 has been logged in the 1961 Gibson ledger
15. 6745 has been logged in the 1961 Gibson ledger
16. 6746 has been logged in the 1961 Gibson ledger
17. 6747 has been logged in the 1961 Gibson ledger
18. 6748 has been logged in the 1961 Gibson ledger
19. 6749 has been logged in the 1961 Gibson ledger
20. 6750 has been logged in the 1961 Gibson ledger
21. 6751 has been logged in the 1961 Gibson ledger
22. 6752 has been logged in the 1961 Gibson ledger
23. 6753 has been logged in the 1961 Gibson ledger
24. 6754 has been logged in the 1961 Gibson ledger
25. 6755 has been logged in the 1961 Gibson ledger
26. 6756 has been logged in the 1961 Gibson ledger
27. 6757 has been logged in the 1961 Gibson ledger
28. 6758 has been logged in the 1961 Gibson ledger
29. 6759 has been logged in the 1961 Gibson ledger
30. 6760 has been logged in the 1961 Gibson ledger
31. 6761 has been logged in the 1961 Gibson ledger
32. 6762 has been logged in the 1961 Gibson ledger
33. 6763 has been logged in the 1961 Gibson ledger
34. 6764 has been logged in the 1961 Gibson ledger
35. 8556 has been mentioned by Blueline

This leaves us with a total of 44 3 or 4 digits serial numbers LPs.

Blueline has noticed a smooth heel on 11784. With no knowledge of this I had seen such a heel for the first time on 13016. With these early 5 digits guitars the “1961 specs” are pretty much set as show further examples such as 15017 or 15020.

 

[PermissionToLand]

I wonder what made them decide to change the shape of the pickguard so slightly. You'd think sharper points would make it look very precise and aggressive, but I suppose the more rounded points have a little more modern and refined feel. I really hate the '70s style small pickguard though, the tip is way too rounded.