Where are we heading ? (rant)

[DrBGood]

I keep reading posts about guitars ordered on the net, not living up to the buyers expectation.

People are pissed off because a fleck of dust was forgotten in the finish behind the headstock.

People are pissed off because a sticker (they would have ripped off anyway) was missing on the guitar.

People are pissed off because some bling don't measure up to their standards.

People are pissed off because the delivery man came ½ hour late.

People are pissed off because they're losing their time inspecting a guitar they will have to return for no good reason.

People are pissed off because ...
I could go on for pages !


Don't you realize you live in a world in which you're fed with a silver spoon ?

Before internet, I had to drive into the city to the music stores, to actually know what was available, and that wasn't much. I usually had to choose between 2 or 3 different models, none of that 15 variation of the same guitar and was super happy to bring it home and play the hell out of it.

Did the paint bleed on the binding ?
Didn't even know it was a thing.

Was the setup optimal ?
Dunno, I just played it.

Was the neck joint different than the one on the only image of that guitar I had seen in a magazine.
Not a clue.

Was the bridge metal the one that would make me sound like my guitar hero ?
... WHAT ?


What is it with you guys ?

When you die and go to heaven, will you ask for custom color binding for the halo over your head ?

GAWD ...

 

[sadmoodyfrazier]

There was a time when we were unaware and life was easier. Actually there is still people thinking that "an american Stratocaster" tells something about the instrument they play and people who thinks that you take pictures of just the body of your Epiphone to hide the fact that it's not a Gibson. Last but not least there is still people asking for the "fishing line" for guitar in the shops.

 

[Astral Traveler]

I keep reading posts about guitars ordered on the net, not living up to the buyers expectation.

People are pissed off because a fleck of dust was forgotten in the finish behind the headstock.

People are pissed off because a sticker (they would have ripped off anyway) was missing on the guitar.

People are pissed off because some bling don't measure up to their standards.

People are pissed off because the delivery man came ½ hour late.

People are pissed off because they're losing their time inspecting a guitar they will have to return for no good reason.

People are pissed off because ...
I could go on for pages !


Don't you realize you live in a world in which you're fed with a silver spoon ?

Before internet, I had to drive into the city to the music stores, to actually know what was available, and that wasn't much. I usually had to choose between 2 or 3 different models, none of that 15 variation of the same guitar and was super happy to bring it home and play the hell out of it.

Did the paint bleed on the binding ?
Didn't even know it was a thing.

Was the setup optimal ?
Dunno, I just played it.

Was the neck joint different than the one on the only image of that guitar I had seen in a magazine.
Not a clue.

Was the bridge metal the one that would make me sound like my guitar hero ?
... WHAT ?


What is it with you guys ?

When you die and go to heaven, will you ask for custom color binding for the halo over your head ?

GAWD ...

We don't have enough real problems in our lifes, that's why we find details to worry about. This goes for all aspects of life, not just guitars.

I doubt I'll be offered a halo...

 

[Chubbles]

Ignorance was bliss.

 

[donepearce]

When I was working in Africa and India I saw children living on what they could pick up on the ground and drinking water from puddles. I understood that there are no necessities. Everything we have is a luxury. At the same time I saw that there are no such things as rights. Everything we can do is a privilege. That can refocus you in a hurry, and I find selfishness kind of loathsome.

 

[deMelo]

We are living some pretty boring and disappointing times. In many aspects.

People whine too much and attach themselves to phony concepts.

What I find the funniest is that most of the times the people who worry more about these issues are often people who don't actually use their gear live, they don't gig or record music, other than youtube videos from their bedrooms.

Real musicians, meaning people who play and write music for others, often worry about whether their gear is working well or not, or if the gear they have gives the audience what they want it to.

 

[Bad Penguin]

Ok, my personal rant:
When I was in my formative years, you had 3, a whopping 3, Pauls. Standard, Deluxe, and Custom. And, in general you had Sunburst, Tobacco Sunburst, Gold, Black, White, and Cherry Red. (And of course, the ones stripped and painted by the kid who worked in the auto paint place.)
For Fenders you had the Strat, Tele, and 2 or 3 others that no one wanted anyway.
Sg's, you had 2.

Now, how many variations do you have of the same theme that has been around forever? Last time I counted, there were approximately 135 versions of the Ibanez RG. Strats? I lost count.

It drives me bleeding insane that there are so many variation of the same thing, with the color making it a special "model", it it has chrome instead of black, or inlays vrs no inlays, and that the companies charge EXTRA for less features, calling it "modified" or some crap like that.

Ok, I feel better. Next!

 

[RhinestoneStrat]

I like Californ-I-A raisins!!!

 

[Bettyboo]

What a terrible opening post...

The fact is that internet ordering has and continues to offer up terrible standards. Sadly, the ease of the internet has put local guitar shops out of business. These local guitar shops actually checked the guitar and set it up for you. Even if you ordered over the phone from these local guitar shops, one could expect a quality working product to be delivered. & that's generally what happened.

Now, these online megastores, whether Thomann or Amazon, and despite their promises of checks and set up, just send out barely checked guitars which have not been set up. If you pay $200 for a secondhand Epiphone like the OP then you may find that acceptable. If you spend $1500 on a new Gibson then you would be stupid to find that acceptable.

Many folks on here have excellent skills at setup and fixing small blemishes, but that doesn't change the fact that the manufacturer and internet dealer have responsibilities. My last Epiphone purchase was $400, and one pick up was hanging off because the screws to hold it were too short (non-standard screws). I fixed the problem quite easily, but did I whinge, yes. Was I right to whinge, yes. Was it disgusting that Epiphone sent out a guitar like that, yes. Was it disgusting that the online shop that promises set-up sent out a guitar like that, yes.

This globalized corporate growth is destroying the livelihood of good old fashioned guitar shops which simply cannot compete. &, us, the consumer, are getting less attention and care while the execs at Thomann, Amazon, Gibson, etc are getting larger and larger salaries. If we do not complain, if we do not insist on at the very minimum the same level of service which they promise then they will just go further and further, take more of the pie.

Some places, such as Sweetwater, are great. The vast majority are not.

Terrible opening post from a very insular one-eyed poster...

 

[Col Mustard]

naw... the good doctor has it right.

PLAY IT BEFORE YOU BUY IT...

This wisdom existed before ETSG ever did, and it's still
true. If you want to be picky about neck shapes (silly)
then PLAY IT BEFORE YOU BUY IT...

If you want to look at your new Gibson with a microscope before accepting it and plugging it in and making real music, then TAKE YOUR MICROSCOPE TO WHERE THEY SELL THEM, AND BUY THE ONE THAT HAS NO FLAWS.
PAY NO ATTENTION TO TONE, JUST LOOK FOR FLAWS
WITH YOUR MICROSCOPE BEFORE YOU PAY.

If you want to buy a guitar unplayed, uninspected, off the internet (or outa the trunk of some goon's car) because you get a better price, then you should
figure the cost of professional setup and blemish smoothing to be part of the price you pay... you save money from the seller, and pay it to an honest luthier who can make your new guitar play great, and smooth
off any flaws.

Whatever you do, don't come cryin' to me because your
$3000 Les Paul has a wrinkle in the finish, or a dimple on the backside of the neck. Or some glue protruding or what.

I never bought a guitar that expensive, and I never will. I'm going to need that money later. So I always buy less expensive guitars, or used ones. And I never worry about little flaws. I get them set up by a talented
luthier, and then I can usually keep them that way.

Oh and the less expensive guitars sound just as good or better than their overpriced and over decorated kin.
Gibson bashing seems like a thing that people have figured out will get them attention and make them seem cool. But it's better to do this with your music.

For me, it's all about tone and playability. I'm hard on my stuff, and if you loaned me a pristine guitar, I'd put some tone notches in it before you could say "Henry Jus-Kee-ah-witz...'

To me, you choose the guitar you buy based on the tone you need for the song you have in mind. Then you
practice with that until the music takes the shape you want, and then your guitar begins to earn its place in
your lineup. Little flaws are irrelevant. Big flaws are something you should spot before you pull out yer
mastercard.

 

[RazorReaver]

We just live in an increasingly abstract world. Too easy to live in it while escaping from it, easy to fantasize, easier to make those fantasies come true. Makes for a less restrained creature, I think. More prone to criticising as we march towards perfection, isolated from the struggles that come before the final product, taking it for granted.

Then wondering why nothing has value anymore.

I still have my first guitar and as I evolved, so did she evolve with me. She's a beauty and a beater, could never part with her, not after everything we've done to each other.

Sentimental, sure, but it's kind of a way to keep me grounded. Whatever perfection I expect must come from myself first. I get to learn what I need from the instrument, and the value of mistakes.

Maybe we have already invented artificial intelligence, decades ago, somehow, and just haven't noticed.

 

[donepearce]

Artificial intelligence? It's still quite hard to find reasonable examples of the natural kind. But AI has kind of run into the buffers - the researchers have found that all the stuff they were calling AI was really just algorithms that depended for actual decisions on the person who wrote the code. It isn't happening any time soon.

 

[SG standard]

What is it with you guys ?

When you die and go to heaven, will you ask for custom color binding for the halo over your head ?

GAWD ...

No, when you die you'll discover the concept of 'heaven' is far more disappointing than any guitar you ever bought - on the internet or in a store. Or rather, you won't discover, as there'll be nothing to discover it, or to feel disappointed, or to complain... So make good use of your time to complain about/enjoy what you've got, while you've still got it... And it's up to you which you think you're best off doing. :)

Artificial intelligence? It's still quite hard to find reasonable examples of the natural kind. But AI has kind of run into the buffers - the researchers have found that all the stuff they were calling AI was really just algorithms that depended for actual decisions on the person who wrote the code. It isn't happening any time soon.

I agree with the first part :) But I'm not so sure about the rest. The people who 'wrote the code' soon lose any idea of what the algorithms are actually doing. Even though algorithms have no more 'intelligence' than an earthworm, they can still do things the human mind is utterly incapable of - incredible speed of processing big data being one example - thus we're unable to keep up with what they are actually doing... Despite being very, very early days, the evidence suggest that 'AI drivers' will quickly surpass their human counterparts on just about every metric: attentional control/focus on the task, sense of direction, speed of decision making, not needing to relentlessly talk crap to their passengers, etc.

 

[donepearce]

The fact that they forget what the code does has no bearing on the fact that every decision made is in fact made by them. AI in computers is still at the level of a sieve that sorts big stones from soil. It does it OK, but it took no part in the decision to do the sorting, and it has no idea what stones and soil are, or why they should be sorted. It is a decision implementer, not a decision maker.

 

[SG standard]

The fact that they forget what the code does has no bearing on the fact that every decision made is in fact made by them. AI in computers is still at the level of a sieve that sorts big stones from soil. It does it OK, but it took no part in the decision to do the sorting, and it has no idea what stones and soil are, or why they should be sorted. It is a decision implementer, not a decision maker.

That's not what I said! They don't 'forget' what code they wrote... or what it does. They simply don't know WHY a decision was 'implemented' - so they don't pretend to have 'made' it when they wrote the code... But if you want to give them all the credit - go ahead.

We've gone way beyond simply writing the code that the AI then implements. Your example works perfectly for a simple machine designed to sort soil in a particular way - but when it comes to algorithms suddenly triggering a collapse in a stock market - or choosing to trigger a particular advert on a web site, the people that wrote the code don't know why those decisions were made - they're not 'in the code' in the way the simple soil sorter is working. For example, you might get to see an advert for cheap flights to Vegas. It happens because your last few months of online activity match the kind of activity of people who respond well to such ads. This comes from crunching big data - but the reality is that you're bipolar, and are switching poles from depressed to manic (which explains the pattern of online behaviour) - it suddenly makes perfect sense to you to take all your saving to Vegas, so you respond and buy cheap flights. The algorithms don't know that's the reason, but neither do the coders - that decision isn't 'in the code', and the coders had no intention of exploiting a mental illness to sell airline tickets, and you really can't attribute the 'decision' to display that ad to the coders - just the general principle of crunching big data and exploiting the patterns within it. This is not the same as making a decision.

There's also the challenge of what/who is actually a decision maker, rather than a decision implementer: All the evidence suggests that consciousness is merely the implementer, although it feels as if it's the maker. So where is the decision maker? And where is the free will that would be required to be a maker, rather than an implementer?

Amazing what you can get out of a rant about people complaining about guitars bought online... :)

 

[donepearce]

Sorry, but every decision IS in the code, and the coder put it there whether he knows it or not. We won't have AI until the computer has abstract concepts and motives of its own. That is still vanishingly far off in the future.

 

[DrBGood]

Is AI made of tonewood ?

 

[RazorReaver]

There's also the challenge of what/who is actually a decision maker, rather than a decision implementer: All the evidence suggests that consciousness is merely the implementer, although it feels as if it's the maker. So where is the decision maker? And where is the free will that would be required to be a maker, rather than an implementer?

Amazing what you can get out of a rant about people complaining about guitars bought online... :)

There is no guitar - ha!

Two parts to a whole, right? One will to desire things and one consciousness (for the sake of context) to wield it.

Maybe the "decision maker" is a combination of those efforts, which is why once consciousness becomes self-aware, it feels incomplete, not knowing what to want, starving nonetheless. Will stems from what we need to survive, to evolve and overcome, to conquer life. However, it is nothing but raw desire, all-consuming without a tempering conscience. Decision making, if I were to narrow it down for this purpose, would fall between intention and action.

This perennial duality that seems to haunt our species' existence and force us to create demons and dragons, music and paintings, cold hearts. To project ourselves unto others and punish and reward them according to some self-veiled whims. It traps some in the darkest depths of their minds and pushes others towards world domination.

And all it takes is a need and a justification. Morality, rules, feelings, hunger... such are the languages of our inside, of life. And we share our interpretations, however flawed, however knowingly so.

We've made quite a show of it all.

 

[donepearce]

I think decisions, particularly crucial ones, are delivered to us fully formed by our subconscious minds. It is the job of the intellect to construct a rationalisation that allows us to explain and justify the choice.

 

[SG standard]

Sorry, but every decision IS in the code, and the coder put it there whether he knows it or not. We won't have AI until the computer has abstract concepts and motives of its own. That is still vanishingly far off in the future.

Maybe it's just semantics - the decision may spring from 'code', but when the code is generated by machine learning, rather than a human creating code, we'd have to attribute the resulting decision to the coder (i.e. the machine).