Intonation for the G string at the nut.

[dbb]

Nope. I'm a microwave engineer, and I design consumer products (for satellite reception). I design them, then go on refining until they work as well as is possible, My tolerances are microns and I understand what it means to work this way. And at the end of the process I have a product of almost unbelievable perfromance that sells for maybe 15 dollars. That is what design and engineering are all about. I don't leave a design half complete with errors that I could fix in an instant. It isn't in my nature, and I expect no less from any other designer/manufacturer, particularly one that trades on a reputation for quality. I'm not being unreasonable in seeking Gibson to set up and machine their guitars to a level at which the user does not need to adjust and make allowances. Not at the prices they charge.

I respect that a lot ...and unfortunately most of the guitar designs are based on 30's-60's models that have both appeal for the sounds they made and for nostalgic value. I don't think makers were dealing in those sort of tolerances when it was still by and large a hand made with power tools business.

Now, though, with CNC machines, PLEKing, etc. the tolerances you mention are possible in guitar making.

 

[donepearce]

I respect that a lot ...and unfortunately most of the guitar designs are based on 30's-60's models that have both appeal for the sounds they made and for nostalgic value. I don't think makers were dealing in those sort of tolerances when it was still by and large a hand made with power tools business.

Now, though, with CNC machines, PLEKing, etc. the tolerances you mention are possible in guitar making.

Sure, but it is time they came up to date. None of the sound and nostalgic value would be lost in the improved accuracy. I'm not one of those who venerate hand building. I know from my own industry that quality and reliability come from a smoothly running production line. Occasionally something doesn't work as it should, and needs some hand work. A dime gets you a dollar that this is the one that will fail in the field.

 

[dbb]

Hartley Peavey would agree - he was the first to use CNC machines in guitar making.

 

[smitty_p]

Hartley Peavey would agree - he was the first to use CNC machines in guitar making.

Cool. Someone else brought up Peavey before I did!

Way to go, David.

 

[Biddlin]

There's your solution donepearce, a Peavey guitar !

You should have no problem swapping for this and do let us know how those chords fret .
Biddlin

 

[dbb]

Cool. Someone else brought up Peavey before I did!

Way to go, David.

I do not own a Strat - I have Fender Texas Special pickups (no I am not trying to sound like SRV) in a "vintage" early 90's made in USA Peavey Predator Strat copy. It's just a well made instrument.

Frankly it has a better (for me) neck than almsot any Strat I've ever played.

 

[Tobacco Worm]

I've been reading this thread for a bit. I'll chime in with my input then I'll shut up.

In the 70's when in luthier school, the old head honcho from Germany explained a guitar neck as this:

You have a sawn curved bit of hollowed wood with a small metal rod pulling against often over 200 pounds of string tension. The distance from the nut to the saddles vary, and thus do the spacing of the frets. Your customers will always be telling you that it's this or that and mostly the guitar is always out of tune. A violinist tunes his instrument and then as he plays "he" then becomes the "tuner" with time honored expirence of correct finger placement on the fingerboard. Thus he will always be in tune.

The guitarist? He's lucky if he can manage to stay close. The battle of the strings pulling one way. The truss rod pulling the other, and the neck and frets stuck in the middle? Yes, it will never be perfect, and this is much to expect from this bit of wood sticking out from the body and with the human hand pushing this way and that. It's a wonder anyone can play this instrument and sound like a musician. When placing frets in the way, it cannot be possible to be perfect as a violin. A guitar is a compromise in fret, string, personal touch, and design. It is not precise and when your customer begins to tell you different, then he can leave your shop and go build a neck for himself as you will never please him. Do not waste his time and yours!

That oldman was a pistol to say the least, and the smartest luthier I ever met in my life. Entering into an argument with him was a loosing battle as he was right about everything related to instruments and their nature, good or bad.

I have built dozens of guitars over the years. Hand built necks from raw wood. Cut fret slots as precise as one could. Hours of finish work and polishing once the build was done. Oh yeah, I'm well aware that even if it played just about right for me, once it reaches the customer, it will sound quite different. The human touch is unique and no amount of precise lazer cutting computer guided devices will ever build it to work perfect for all.

Said and done. Good night.

Wade

 

[donepearce]

There's your solution donepearce, a Peavey guitar !

You should have no problem swapping for this and do let us know how those chords fret .
Biddlin

Man, that's ugly.

 

[dbb]

A guitar is a compromise in fret, string, personal touch, and design. It is not precise and when your customer begins to tell you different, then he can leave your shop and go build a neck for himself as you will never please him. Do not waste his time and yours!

Great point - the whole guitar is a compromise - as is equal tempered tuning.

The violinist in your analogy can play in pure tuning in any key, and Ab can be 1/9th of a tone sharper than a G#, etc. Why?

No frets.

On a fretted instrument the tuning system and the mechanics are a compromise.

Perhaps smart engineers/designers can improve many things about guitar design; but they can't change the equal tempered tuning system.

 

[donepearce]

I've been reading this thread for a bit. I'll chime in with my input then I'll shut up.

In the 70's when in luthier school, the old head honcho from Germany explained a guitar neck as this:

You have a sawn curved bit of hollowed wood with a small metal rod pulling against often over 200 pounds of string tension. The distance from the nut to the saddles vary, and thus do the spacing of the frets. Your customers will always be telling you that it's this or that and mostly the guitar is always out of tune. A violinist tunes his instrument and then as he plays "he" then becomes the "tuner" with time honored expirence of correct finger placement on the fingerboard. Thus he will always be in tune.

The guitarist? He's lucky if he can manage to stay close. The battle of the strings pulling one way. The truss rod pulling the other, and the neck and frets stuck in the middle? Yes, it will never be perfect, and this is much to expect from this bit of wood sticking out from the body and with the human hand pushing this way and that. It's a wonder anyone can play this instrument and sound like a musician. When placing frets in the way, it cannot be possible to be perfect as a violin. A guitar is a compromise in fret, string, personal touch, and design. It is not precise and when your customer begins to tell you different, then he can leave your shop and go build a neck for himself as you will never please him. Do not waste his time and yours!

That oldman was a pistol to say the least, and the smartest luthier I ever met in my life. Entering into an argument with him was a loosing battle as he was right about everything related to instruments and their nature, good or bad.

I have built dozens of guitars over the years. Hand built necks from raw wood. Cut fret slots as precise as one could. Hours of finish work and polishing once the build was done. Oh yeah, I'm well aware that even if it played just about right for me, once it reaches the customer, it will sound quite different. The human touch is unique and no amount of precise lazer cutting computer guided devices will ever build it to work perfect for all.

Said and done. Good night.

Wade

Your luthier has said two things of note. First that the string tension is over 200 pounds. Well, he has doubled the true figure, so I leave you to judge his knowledge. Secondly he has admitted that by hand, using wood as his material of choice, he can't make an accurately fretted neck. Well, he's right about that at least.

 

[Tobacco Worm]

Ever measure a heavy gauged 12 string? It's close. His instruction was made to cover a broad spectrum.... But then again what the hell do I know? I just went to school for two years on this profession and spent three decades in the business. I suppose those credentials from Gibson, Fender, Jackson, and Peavey just looked good on the wall and had no bearing upon the certifications for complete factory repairs that required inspections of my shop, my work, my training background and such. Jolly refreshing to find me such a cretaceous fossil yes? Now I did say that I was going to shut up. But again..... ah, forget it. A locked ethos fails to be something I wish to engage in debate with. No matter how trivial. On second thought, I'm going to bed.... Far more logical action.

 

[Biddlin]

"A dime gets you a dollar that this is the one that will fail in the field."
Of course, since Pythagoras' time, many lutes have failed in the field, yet the bridge and nut construction has been in use since classical antiquity, so it's had a good run .
" For me, $2,000 means that all chords had better sound in tune. "
If you really believe that such great improvement is possible, why aren't you building a better guitar ? It sounds like you have the knowledge and skill set . I play a $400 Faded Special , stock everything, just fine, but I'd be thrilled to see and hear your results and many on this site would be customers . I'm keen on precision work . My cousin Oren can do scrimshaw on walrus ivory sewing needles . They wrote him up in The St. Johns Telegraph, but they couldn't get good pictures .

 

[Relic61]

Its a difficult thing to take your engineering standards and production values used in your industry and wanting/expecting them to be applied to a business that is about selling guitars and making money money money. Perfect intonation goes way beyond simply changing the nut cut and style and would have to involve fret changes to be absolutely accurate up and down the fretboard to me your 'to the micron' expectations.

Do you know what a guitar looks like that has its frets all set for perfect intonation all across the board. It does change its traditional, nostalgic & esthetic looks & I personal find those frets ugly & weird compared to a traditional guitar with its smooth rounded straight lines and gradual incremental spacing. On top of that I would wager most people would not be interesting in buying them. It would cost Gibson money to develop and then produce this type of fretboard. An investment that would be very hard to recover. Here is a look at what a fretboard looks like when its intonation is figured out in theoretical microns and cents.









Pretty strange looking if not ugly. I wouldn't even be able to play most the things I play when doing double bends and string pulls.

Lots of Gibsons business is based on traditional design. I just don't see the average player wanting to play on something that looks like the above or feels like that under your fingers when you bend a string. I just don't believe this technology and resulting look matches up with Gibsons idea of what they want their Guitars styling to look like nor does the technology represented fit in with their well thought out image.

This stuff just looks strange, angular and anything but smooth playing and traditional. I just don't ever see Gibson going down this road of small financial returns and ever putting out anything like this that would counter their well thought out image based on so much tradition.

I really think it is that simple. It comes down to Gibson valuing its tradition & using that traditional design & look to sell their guitars. On top of that, the money, effort, design and manufacturing costs very likely would not be recovered or meet the profit margins that Gibson looks to make selling guitars.

I've been buying several Gibsons a year since retiring and I'm not at all interested in playing anything that has the looks and obvious playing disadvantages of any of those above fretboards.

I don't think your engineering tolerances or lack of tolerance for Gibsons lack of engineering tolerances (wink) carry over to a large corporation like Gibson simply because of what a perfectly engineered end product would not only cost but what it would end up looking like.

I am afraid to say that if you really want a perfectly intonated fretboard you will not get it from Gibson and will have to buy it elsewhere. Even if you could get one, would you really want to play it or enjoy playing it once you have something that looks like this? Being indignant that a $2000 Gibson guitar isn't perfectly intonated to the micron just isn't going to make anything change or make a perfect fretboard happen at Gibson.

 

[JohnP]

I like this debate. Within the discussion lies the fundamental question about the “guitar of the future”.
The electric guitar cannot be reinvented. The design was written in stone more than 50 years ago. So far, there has been no reason to change it. Many luthiers and manufacturers have tried to make improvements over the years. But to this day there has been no alteration to the original design from the 50’s that had any major impact neither on sound, nor on consumer preferences.

Product development in this business is mostly about cosmetics, configuration of standard components, economy in manufacturing methods and resources. But the latter could force manufacturers to use new materials and methods; Laminated necks, exoskeleton and carbon fiber constructions have been around for years. In a future where the historical models become too expensive for the mass market, I foresee a new line of guitars. If and when this happens, there will be an opportunity to fix some of the other “minor flaws” of guitar design as well…

 

[donepearce]

"A dime gets you a dollar that this is the one that will fail in the field."
Of course, since Pythagoras' time, many lutes have failed in the field, yet the bridge and nut construction has been in use since classical antiquity, so it's had a good run .
" For me, $2,000 means that all chords had better sound in tune. "
If you really believe that such great improvement is possible, why aren't you building a better guitar ? It sounds like you have the knowledge and skill set . I play a $400 Faded Special , stock everything, just fine, but I'd be thrilled to see and hear your results and many on this site would be customers . I'm keen on precision work . My cousin Oren can do scrimshaw on walrus ivory sewing needles . They wrote him up in The St. Johns Telegraph, but they couldn't get good pictures .

Not my profession, and far too late to change. And I'm very happy doing what I do. My profession is not exactly overstocked with ability since nobody can be bothered to do a degree that is actually hard.

 

[Biddlin]

Not my profession, and far too late to change. And I'm very happy doing what I do. My profession is not exactly overstocked with ability since nobody can be bothered to do a degree that is actually hard.

Let's see, you don't aspire to musicianship,you simply want an instrument that intuits your will, with no more skill than required for typing, at perfect pitch . Disregarding the insult to those on this site, who strive with dedication and devotion to be the best guitarist that they can be, many more on $200 guitars than $2000 Gibsons, I believe I can accommodate your desire .Voila:

Enjoy,
Biddlin ;>)/

 

[Relic61]

Within that guitar that Biddlin is suggesting lies the tightest bass player and percussion section that you will ever find to keep pace and accompany the always perfectly intonated guitar selections. Casio even makes a lighted key model that will show where where your fingers have to go.

Altogether it adds up to more stuff we don't have to think about or master as musicians and gives us way less to find complaint over. (except crappy digitized guitar tones, I guess there will always be something to complain about eh)

In the end, Gibson doesn't care what you & I as an individual wants from them & their designs or even if you like their guitars or not. All they really truly care about is making money hand over fist selling guitars. Until we collectively stop buying Gibsons while demanding in a unified voice for perfect intonation before buying them again, we will never see any design change that would be so cosmetically different and costly both in development, production and in lost sales. Money talks, microns walk. What are the chances of ever convincing Gibson of the need to offer a perfectly intonated guitar? Especially when the majority dont want what that guitar would look or play like if those frets look anything like the above fretboards.

It is time for common sense to override tuning cents and except the guitar as the beautiful yet imperfect thing it is or, do what you have to do to get what you want like everyone else that modifies their guitar or finds a brand that actually offers what they seek. Tormenting others with an argument such as this that holds no solution for you (other than to make it happen yourself) isnt going to accomplish a satisfactory end unless that end entails you accepting Gibson guitars for the beautiful yet faulted instruments thay are.

Hang in there donepearce. Once we're done here we'll all be best of buds and have fond memories of the 'micron pages'.

Right now, I think I'm gonna be putting some marshmallows over top of this and enjoy the 'good times' we're all making together.

 

[dbb]

I just want to say that I am very happy that designer/engineers have been able to come up with keyboards that are inexpensive and have all the sounds that in the past required a truck to haul multiple electro-mechanical keyboards that were very heavy and often one-trick ponies.

I still think the current designs are fine - if made to exact spec and well set up.

 

[donepearce]

Let's see, you don't aspire to musicianship,you simply want an instrument that intuits your will, with no more skill than required for typing, at perfect pitch . Disregarding the insult to those on this site, who strive with dedication and devotion to be the best guitarist that they can be, many more on $200 guitars than $2000 Gibsons, I believe I can accommodate your desire .Voila:

Enjoy,
Biddlin ;>)/

Hey, hold up buddy. It is the profession of luthier that I won't be taking up. Musicianship is right up there for me. I was in my first blues band in 1967, and at some point after that I spent a while with Alexis Korner and his band. I play guitar every day, usually for a few hours, and am regularly to be heard in pubs. Be a little more attentive before you throw around accusations of being insulting please.

 

[Biddlin]

So sorry, perhaps I misunderstood your meaning . I tend to be too literal with technical types, assuming a precision of language that may not exist . I'll try to be more intuitive in future .
Biddlin ;>)/
"If you find it sufficient that most chords sound in tune to you, then good for you. For me, $2,000 means that all chords had better sound in tune. "
To an American/Canadian ear, that sounds pretty insulting and dismissive and elitist .

" I'm not being unreasonable in seeking Gibson to set up and machine their guitars to a level at which the user does not need to adjust and make allowances. Not at the prices they charge."

Again, pretty elitist and totally unrealistic . Environmental conditions alone require adaptation and the flexibility of guitars put that adaptation in the hands of the operator . Drive and quit complaining .

"Your luthier has said two things of note. First that the string tension is over 200 pounds. Well, he has doubled the true figure, so I leave you to judge his knowledge. Secondly he has admitted that by hand, using wood as his material of choice, he can't make an accurately fretted neck. Well, he's right about that at least."

Pretty snide and dismissive, but you're right, the pull on my Dot Deluxe with heavy flatwounds is only 182 lbs .+/- .
Again, sorry for any misunderstanding that left you the "offended party ."
Cheers