Tone issues

[Mule Bell]

Thanks for all of your great responses to my strap lock question. Unfortunately my next issue is much more difficult.

I have been enjoying my SG for about two weeks now, but I am not at all satisfied with the tone I am getting with my amp. I have a Fender Champ 25SE that I bought in the early 90s. Although it does an acceptable job with my Telecaster, I am finding the SG tone to be very thin and weak through this amp. The whole point in getting an SG was to get a fatter, thicker, harder sound than the Tele.

I have been considering a few options to address the situation:
· A modeling/effects pedal such as the Digitechs
· A Yamaha THR10 modeling amp (probably the original or the 10C)
· Both a pedal and the amp for maximum tone and effects options

I expect that many of you consider pedals and modeling amps to be cheating, but I just don’t have the money for the real thing, and I don’t need the volume (remember that I literally play in a closet – the Yamaha is loud enough).

I want my SG to be fat. What are your thoughts? Am I pursuing the right solutions?

 

[Col Mustard]

I don't think there's any reason you can't get a fat round tone from your SG using the tone controls you already have. (I like to set my bridge tone control at about 3 and my neck tone control at about 8, fr instance) BUT:

Consider an EQ pedal. it's not a distortion or modeling pedal, it simply gives you complete control over your tone, as well as a clean boost in the signal if you desire. Each of the bands covered by the EQ pedal may represent something to your ear, and you move them up and down until you find the sound you like.

At that point, you can play both guitars through an A-B switch, use your existing setting for the Fender if you like that, and when you stomp the A-B to give the Gibson a chance at bat, you then stomp the EQ pedal and the SG comes out strong and full in just the frequencies you prefer. Hard to beat...

I just bought a brand new Boss GE-7 for like $89, but you can find those used at guitar stores for less... also there are other less expensive EQ pedals on the market. You can go online and google settings for it, and find whole threads on the subject.

You can also go into our amp section and read what others here are playing their SGs through. Thin and weak are not 'normal' ways to describe the tone of an SG, so something's wrong in your tone control setup IMHO. I've been enjoying playing my SG through a Vox VT-30 (which is an older discontinued modeling amp)... the VT-20+ and others of the series ought to straighten your tone problems out, but so can just about any Fender amp that's ever been made. I like Fender amps. They don't make weak thin sounds in my experience. Good luck. Remember that

THE QUEST FOR TONE HAS NO FINISH LINE
SO IT'S TECHNICALLY A DEATH MARCH.

Off you go... don't forget to write. keep us posted on what you discover and how your SG tone develops. Not just for yourself and for us, but for others who are new to the SG.

 

[Mule Bell]

Thanks Mustard.

I think due to my lack of experience in describing these kinds of things, I did not effectively explain my problem completely. When I say "tone" I am trying to describe the overall sound. Part of this is EQ, but a big part of it for me is the gain. My Champ has a very hollow overdrive sound, and it is not providing the crunch I was expecting from an SG. As you said, my SG should not be thin and weak. It might be due to my amp settings, but I know it is more than that.

 

[Mule Bell]

And I should mention that although my hearing is badly damaged and very suspect, I tried some of the Yamaha amps today and they were much closer to what I want than my Champ.

 

[Syrinx]

First off, I think we need to know what type of tone you are looking for. Are you looking for a rock tone, metal, jazz, blues or something else? That would help us suggest a pedal or other tricks that might help. I wouldn't suggest, say a Metal Zone, if you want to play the blues. I don't think pedals are cheating. All that counts is if it sounds good. You don't get extra points for not using effects. Besides who's keeping score?

Secondly, before you buy something, I would set your amp eq flat and start over to see if you can achieve the tone you are looking for. I would also look at the height of your pickups and adjust them if you need to.

 

[Mule Bell]

Good points Syrinx. I want a few tones, to be honest. I would like a nice clean sound, a nice scratchy/crunchy Stones sound, and then several levels heavier and more distorted. Just basic rock tones and hard rock tones, but not something like the buzz of Nu metal. And all I am getting now is a thin sound that is not any different from my Tele.

 

[Snake Plissken]

Two of the amps I use with my Tele and SG are a 1970s Champ and a THR10 . Both sound great with both guitars. If you're looking for something small, that you aren't going to jam or play out with, the THR10 is a killer amp. It will get you all three of those tones that you mention: clean, just on the edge of breakup Stones sound, and high gain stuff. I love mine. The amp gets even better if you use the digital editing software that comes with it. Even if you're not super computer savvy, it's a very easy to use, intuitive interface. I'm a minimalist, and I think it's a piece of cake to use, and you can program your own sounds, each with its own effects like compression, delay, flange, tremolo, etc. I probably use the THR more than my other amps, including the Champ, Bassman LTD and '68 Band Master.

 

[rocknme]

Two words: Tube Screamer

 

[Dorian]

THE QUEST FOR TONE HAS NO FINISH LINE
SO IT'S TECHNICALLY A DEATH MARCH.

Oh dear. This sounds like a variant of the classic political disease -- the drive to be elected President is only cured by embalming fluid.

More seriously:
+1 on the tube screamer. It works for me when I need to switch quickly to a thick lead tone. I have an old Rat pedal that works for this, too, but it is a bit much sometimes.

Also, you might want to adjust the distance between your pickups and the strings. The shorter the distance, the raunchier the sound.

With pickup heights, tube screamer, and tone controls (which are different at different volume control settings), you might be sorting this all out for a while. I'm confident you can get a heavy rock tone from this all somehow.

 

[Mule Bell]

Thanks for all of the suggestions and encouragement.

In summary, it sounds like I need to adjust the tone settings on the guitar, work with the tone settings on the amp, get an EQ pedal, get a Tube Screamer pedal, raise the height of my pickups, get a THR10, and drink more Grolsch.

I think I am beginning to understand. There is no single, simple answer. I need to be patient and experiment.

I was just expecting an immediate, dramatic difference between my Tele and the SG. I should have realized that it is not so easy.

All that said, I am ready to get a Yamaha THR10. Although it is tiny and weighs just a fraction of my Fender Champ, it has a much better variety of tones, and better emphasizes what the SG can do.

 

[Col Mustard]

different amp=>different voice. oh and all of those suggestions you mentioned are good. you can't go wrong with an EQ pedal and a Tube Screamer... for many kinds of music that's all you'd need. working the tone controls until you find the combination you like is what we all have to do. I use craft paint to mark my starting points, because I usually have several guitars onstage and this enables me to check my settings very quickly, and make adjustments from there as needed.

the best thing to do is get the EQ pedal and use what you have, but the next best thing would be to take your SG to a store that sells used amps (like the Music-Go-Round near me) and plug your guitar into a number of them and listen. lots of us have multiple amps we use. Some players object to modeling amps, and I know one excellent guitar player who takes pride in playing without any pedals --a purist! Telecaster tone into a Vox VT-20+ on the clean setting. He sounds great like that too... knows just how to use it.

But I think modeling amps are fun. onstage I use only one or two settings, one clean and one with a small amount of overdrive. Onstage I have to keep things as simple as possible. But when practicing, I can play anything. and that's fun. good luck.

 

[Heket]

When I first opened this thread I could have sworn you were going to say that you had the same pickup I once did which I felt similarly meh about, but now I see you have a 2013 Standard, which are Classic 57s, yes? Never have I ever seen those described as thin or trebley! There's something squiffy in your signal chain and I'd like to bet it ain't your SG :)

You mention your amp is "acceptable" with your Tele. Just "acceptable"? I'm going to make an assumption here, that is with a 25W amp you are not getting the volume knob very high in that closet of yours. I don't believe there are any amps that size that will sound great at low volumes. Even my old Peavey 15W SS was too loud for me in my bedroom.

Others have mentioned a ton of settings you can fiddle with - tone knobs, EQ, pickup height etc so I won't repeat those. Being that those are free, those should be your first port of call. Beyond that:

I would take a look at your ampage. Even disregarding the fatness of your tone for now, you would do better with a lower wattage amp. The THR would be perfect as it's designed to be played at low volume. Sadly it does have weeny little speakers, but in such a small space hopefully that won't matter.

Modelling amps aren't cheating! I like an amp itself rather than a pedal. Most of them are, however, pretty loud. I have a Vox VT20+ which I would recommend because it has its own inbuilt power attenuator. This means you can run it at full pelt at a fraction of the volume of other modellers. It's knob just like a normal volume knobs so you can choose your power scale from 1W up to 30W. The models sound good (so look into the VT Tonelab too) .They're pretty good value and a lot cheaper than the THRs. However, THRs have the advantage of easy recording, smaller size and (imo) better sounding effects, but with the money you save you can consider a pedal, if you needed one. Which leads me to:

Pedals - Tube Screamers are great and do really fatten tone, but take a look at all the hundreds of clones out there. The real deal are costly. You mention Digitech - that's a good place to start. Another good one to try is Joyo Ultimate Drive. It has more gain than a tube screamer, but I find it clearer, more transparent and better if you want to drive a clean amp rather than boost an already overdriven one.

Conclusion? Hmm do I have one? You have noticed that there's not an easy answer. If it were me I'd be looking at an amp. Not the cheapest option, but there's only so much you can add to an amp if it doesn't suit you. However, do also look into possible faults. Dodgy pots? Someone didn't accidentally wire your pickups out of phase? Is it just one or both pickups?

Anyway, have fun fiddling with the settings you already have. If you get an EQ pedal, let us know the results of your experimentation.

 

[Col Mustard]

she's right about that amp needing to be played at low volume. There's nothing wrong with your guitar. I have a 15W amp that's way loud for practicing on the second floor of a building when there are people on the first floor who might not be interested. Playing at low volume when you're in proximity with muggles is something you have to get used to.
Some amps just don't sound great until they're cranking along just under the breakup phase, so you can push your notes into that with pick attack.

So the Vox VT-20+ with its power attenuator might be a good alternative. Or that ten watt one. Don't be discouraged, and if you've got friends who have a good practice space, take your SG over and let one of them play it through their rig. Listen... Take another guitarist with you (and your SG) to check out amps. Listen more... Hope that helps.

 

[eS.G.]

I can attest to the fact the VOX system is awesome I have the AD30VT and in 35 years of playing at guitars I have never had an amp that was this much fun...I have had louder or larger or hotter or what have you but this thing marries all the sounds and programs and "tube" touches I love plus the power adjustment mentioned by the Col. allows you to hear the amp on "11" but without pissing off the neighborhood! Thats a double plus in my book.
--That, and at least round these parts you can pick up used ones for 2 bills and under.

 

[Mule Bell]

The volume on the Champ for me is usually around 2. I just pushed it to 3 and it was pretty loud. I guess this confirms that I am playing it far below the ideal volume. I must admit that it did sound better when it was louder. So, this is a big part of the problem. Also, I think the amp just does not produce the kinds of fatter tones that I want from the SG. It is definitely more suited to the Tele.

I had almost made a final decision that I was going to get the Yamaha THR10. Probably the THR10C. I liked a few of the models in the original THR10 (especially Brit Hi), but I liked more of the models on the THR10C. The THR10X would have some great distortion models, but that's all it has. But now I need to check out the Vox also.

 

[Biddlin]

I use an ad30vt with my Korg multi-pedal for darn near everything and the power attenuator is great. I find the "programming" inordinately complicated and tend to use only the tweed 4-12 or UK 80s models in live settings with the pedal, for effects.
For home use however, "playing" with the effects and models is fun, indeed. I could have saved the 30 bucks for the two-button foot switch, though.
Biddlin ;>)/

 

[Col Mustard]

yeah, I swear by my VT-30, which is the next model after the AD30VT. Heket's got the VT-20+ which is the next model after mine. I have to rein this amp in, really. And it's got models on it that I'll never use, but they sell these to players worldwide, and try to have something for everyone. i use a little mini-snake to bring the signal from the amp out to a direct box on my peddle board, and when you plug this amp into a P.A. it sounds huge.

so it sounds like the OP is on to where tone gets better. Keep us in the loop Mule Bell and let us know how you're getting on with things. Once you start talking amps and pedals, this thread could go on for pages. There's a few of us Vox fans here right now, but others might speak up. There's a lot of good amps to choose from, and I still don't think there's any flies on your Champ.

 

[dbb]

But I think modeling amps are fun. onstage I use only one or two settings, one clean and one with a small amount of overdrive. Onstage I have to keep things as simple as possible. But when practicing, I can play anything. and that's fun. good luck.

Modelling amps aren't cheating! I like an amp itself rather than a pedal.

I'm another confirmed user of modeling amps. I can get a variety of the tones I like and use, plus basic effects, all from the amp, and that's a plus for me in stage and recording situations.

Additionally, the two modeling amps I have are quite different sounding tonally, although there is some overlap. For instance, there is a jazz amp model on the SuperChamp XD that just nails it flat-out, I think the sound is based on the old Fender Jazz King amp:

A description of the Jazz King - "but if Fender ever made an amp that was dedicated to one type guitar (the arch top) then the jazz king is it. I play solo finger style jazz covering mostly standards. It could be said (and has been) that the jazz king is pretty much a 'one trick pony'. Don't expect to 'rock out' on it. It's forte is amplifying arch top guitars being used to play jazz. That is what it was designed to do and that's what it does very well."

I have a jazz concert Sunday and plan on using that amp model with an archtop guitar.

Yet, if you just turn the dial from that amp model to a Blackface Fender or a Plexi or a Vox....all in one amp...yup I love modeling amps alright.

 

[weemac]

I have the champ 25se amp...
On the dirty channel keep the gain at 9 o'clock, the contour at 9 o'clock, the bass up past 2 o'clock, the treble below 10 o'clock the volume right up..
That will give you a good crunchy roar!

They are a funny amp but some great sounds are lurking within..

Eden.

 

[Mule Bell]

Thanks weemac. I tried your suggested settings and it did result in a fat and crunchy tone. I am surprised because the gain is so low.

But I still like the THR10C, and the Vox VT20 seems great, although I will need to hear it first.

Thanks again everyone for the ideas.