In all honesty, it really wouldn't hurt to help us out with the name in return for answers to your question about the meaning of EC+ condition...but I do feel this thread needs to stop be locked or something since it will not look good for new members when they join.
What does EC+ condition mean to you?
- Thread starter Jonny Rocker
- Start date
This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links like Ebay, Amazon, and others.
- Status
Relic61
Well-Known Member
Granted you bought this guitar and can handle this anyway you choose, even if it seemingly is contrary to every single bit of advice given by all who cared enough to help you to get some satisfaction out of this deal. If you cared enough to post about it, take pictures of the damage & write the seller a letter expressing your unhappiness, I just don't see how you do all that & then basically roll over and take the butthurt without seeing it through and doing the things that you can do to exact some compensatory satisfaction from a dishonest seller. Hear that? A DISHONEST SELLER!!! He deserves to be exposed and yet you cant mention the name??? WTF Really? Not only has he gotten away with screwing you over and making you upset in the process, but he has effectively silenced you like a rape victim that refuses to testify against their assailant. And that simply allows him to take advantage of the next unknowing victim. Ok, rape victim is intentionally pushing it but... By remaining silent, you unquestionably enable the behavior to continue and another person to fall victim to the same dishonest marketing & salesmanship.
I've dealt with these types of dishonest people & businesses before. As a matter of principle, I have never allowed any of them to triumph over me with any of their scams, despite how burnt out & tired I may be from the situation. Dishonesty should never be rewarded or allowed to win. Besides, there is nothing like fighting with 'Right' on your side. Win loose or draw, I feel we all need to do whatever we can to hold the scammers & scumbags of this world accountable in the hopes that their actions are exposed & terminated. If inspiration is needed while going through this added aggravation, one can always hold on to the hopes that it is not only about 'doing the right thing' but it is also about saving somebody else from a future sale that ends the same way, and so on and so on. It becomes a matter of being responsible despite the added hassle. I guarantee that anybody that does the same will feel better regardless of how hard it is or how it turns out.
How could you ever look at this guitar and not have it be associated with you being taken advantage of? Nobody can make you be the man they want you to be and stand up for yourself, just as no one can make you think of other people besides yourself and disclose the seller of the dishonest deal. If you don't have that in you already it appears you have some learning to do about things. What's right is right. And you aint right! If it wasn't for you allowing someone else to get played by the same seller it wouldn't matter as much. You silence basically makes you complicit in the sellers future scams. Shame on you for that. That is as wrong as what the seller did. And that is what people are buthurt about!
I've dealt with these types of dishonest people & businesses before. As a matter of principle, I have never allowed any of them to triumph over me with any of their scams, despite how burnt out & tired I may be from the situation. Dishonesty should never be rewarded or allowed to win. Besides, there is nothing like fighting with 'Right' on your side. Win loose or draw, I feel we all need to do whatever we can to hold the scammers & scumbags of this world accountable in the hopes that their actions are exposed & terminated. If inspiration is needed while going through this added aggravation, one can always hold on to the hopes that it is not only about 'doing the right thing' but it is also about saving somebody else from a future sale that ends the same way, and so on and so on. It becomes a matter of being responsible despite the added hassle. I guarantee that anybody that does the same will feel better regardless of how hard it is or how it turns out.
How could you ever look at this guitar and not have it be associated with you being taken advantage of? Nobody can make you be the man they want you to be and stand up for yourself, just as no one can make you think of other people besides yourself and disclose the seller of the dishonest deal. If you don't have that in you already it appears you have some learning to do about things. What's right is right. And you aint right! If it wasn't for you allowing someone else to get played by the same seller it wouldn't matter as much. You silence basically makes you complicit in the sellers future scams. Shame on you for that. That is as wrong as what the seller did. And that is what people are buthurt about!
Col Mustard
Well-Known Member
I feel like you've chosen the right way to move... forward. Especially since you intend to keep the guitar and play it. That's the proper end of the story, with you playing that SG. The sound and the feel are so much more important than the surface looks IMHO, that I believe the best thing to do is just make that guitar yours by playing it a lot. Maybe you're way ahead of me and have already done that.
I've had good results hand buffing a Satin finished SG with Meguiar's Ultimate compound, which you'll find at an auto parts store. It might not completely remove the marks, but ought to significantly reduce them, depending on how hard and long you rub it. The Meguiars will do no harm. I wouldn't use sandpaper. But removing the hardware and hand rubbing the finish and then reinstalling the hardware and replacing the strings ought to help transform the situation, emotionally.
Just to clear your feelings when you pick up the guitar and play is the key, since you intend to keep it and use it. Name the guitar 'Sweet Angel...." as in 'fly on, my sweet angel...' by a left handed guitar genius, who had trouble finding guitars made for him, and played rightie guitars upside down.
New plastic parts ought to help reduce the irritation factor (if necessary) without breaking the bank. As a matter of fact, that dealer ought to just order them up and send them to you as a good will gesture. I think Allparts or Stewmac sells lefthanded pickguards, they don't cost too much. But my suggestion is to look well online, and find something really cool to put on your new SG, something to take the eye away from the flaws in the finish.
Have some fun with it, and transform something irritating into a positive thing. Then play great music on it, as was meant to be. That's my suggestion. Leave the dealer behind. Think of the guitar like a rescue dog, you saved her, you brought her home, cleaned her up and now she's your faithful companion. Sounds good anyway.
I've had good results hand buffing a Satin finished SG with Meguiar's Ultimate compound, which you'll find at an auto parts store. It might not completely remove the marks, but ought to significantly reduce them, depending on how hard and long you rub it. The Meguiars will do no harm. I wouldn't use sandpaper. But removing the hardware and hand rubbing the finish and then reinstalling the hardware and replacing the strings ought to help transform the situation, emotionally.
Just to clear your feelings when you pick up the guitar and play is the key, since you intend to keep it and use it. Name the guitar 'Sweet Angel...." as in 'fly on, my sweet angel...' by a left handed guitar genius, who had trouble finding guitars made for him, and played rightie guitars upside down.
New plastic parts ought to help reduce the irritation factor (if necessary) without breaking the bank. As a matter of fact, that dealer ought to just order them up and send them to you as a good will gesture. I think Allparts or Stewmac sells lefthanded pickguards, they don't cost too much. But my suggestion is to look well online, and find something really cool to put on your new SG, something to take the eye away from the flaws in the finish.
Have some fun with it, and transform something irritating into a positive thing. Then play great music on it, as was meant to be. That's my suggestion. Leave the dealer behind. Think of the guitar like a rescue dog, you saved her, you brought her home, cleaned her up and now she's your faithful companion. Sounds good anyway.
Well, that rules out Guitar Center, Musicians Friend, Sweetwater, American Musical Supply, and Sam Ash.
Next on the list of suspects is Music Zoo, Rainbow Guitars, Wildwood, and Dave's Guitars.
Are we on the right track?
Kevy Nova
Well-Known Member
Let's play 20 Questions!
Relic61
Well-Known Member
Let's not. For whatever reason, he aint talking!
Sometimes you just cant get people to think beyond their own interests and come clean, even if it is for the sake of others beyond themselves. Maybe this was... reverse karma?
Sometimes you just cant get people to think beyond their own interests and come clean, even if it is for the sake of others beyond themselves. Maybe this was... reverse karma?
My detective work is pointing to an establishment in Wisconsin. They have a 1972 Fender Strat up for sale now and rated at EC-. It has gold colored flaking or blotches on various parts of the guitar's body. My lips are sealed, but you, dear reader, can probably come to the same conclusions. Their prices seem reasonable, so even if EC really means G+ or VG-, I would not boycott the place. There are a lot worse places to shop, and one of them is a high-end vintage dealer with the highest markups in the business. (This is the one that decided to stockpile 1968 Gibson SG's. The joke is on him, since no one is buying).
Jonny Rocker
Active Member
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2010
- Messages
- 132
- Reaction score
- 27
Mellow, you were the only one that actually put any thought about who the dealer might be. Many of the forum members on this thread just launched personal attacks against me, one after the other, since I wouldn't name the dealer. Talk about being immature, I felt as if I was consulting with a bunch of 12 yr olds. We talking about a variance of maybe $50 in price? I am supposed to get a red faced angry over $50?!
The cosmetic issues with the guitar were very minor, but certain members on here are acting like the dealer sold me a guitar with a broken neck, Epiphone electronics etc. It's not that big of deal and the dealer did not screw me over. I got a great price on the guitar and I'm very happy with it, which is why I kept it.
Again, I do not want to get into a potentially liabel case related to some forum posting, that could negatively impact a dealer sales. Also, the dealer would go after me, not the forum or other forum members. As far as not protecting other buyers, as I stated earlier in this thread, you have to treat every used guitar purchase, even from a big dealer, as if it might be coming from Ebay. You need to ask for detailed pictures and follow up with pertinent questions. Learn from my mistake.
Jonny Rocker
Active Member
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2010
- Messages
- 132
- Reaction score
- 27
^^^Case in point. Instead of engaging in an adult conversation, he just links pictures and calls people names. Hell, he just sent me a PM calling me all kinds of derogatory names. Again, I am no longer 12 years old, so the personal insults are more comical to me than anything.
Whereas, Smitty-P, Col Mustard and Mellow are adults capable of rational thinking.
Whereas, Smitty-P, Col Mustard and Mellow are adults capable of rational thinking.
Last edited:
Sootio
Well-Known Member
I'm with you JR. Don't let the bastards grind you down.
Relic61
Well-Known Member
Just as my experiences have made me who I am. I cant change you & you cant change me. I just cant honestly except your decision to be afraid of telling the truth. You have the right to do what you want to do just as I have the right to feel as I do.
I personally believe in the truth and put a high value on it. One should not be afraid of the truth. That is where our views take different paths. To me, Being afraid of the truth is always a mistake.
Try to understand where I'm coming from, after 26 yrs in prison , living my life & seeing what I have seen from people, I can only see unchecked abuse as wrong in so many ways, just wrong. Allowing wrong to go uncorrected leaves the problem to remain to victimize someone else.
To you, you have already itemized this as a $50 lie and justified letting the dishonesty go because 'other places are worse' 'the guitar is worth it' and 'you want to keep it'. To me life is more cut and dry & principle holds a higher value than a deal on a guitar I like. Wrong is wrong. People that do wrong must be held accountable, every damn time. Without that accountability for our actions and consequence when wrong is done to others so one may profit things quickly become worse and more people will be victimized, just a surely as this seller will use that same technique again and fool somebody else into buying an EC+ guitar only to find once they get it home it isn't EC+, but then the odds will again be they like the guitar and it isn't worth the hassle of straightening the dishonest seller out. Yea, this guy has found a great way to sell guitars hasn't he?! And you have allowed him to continue to do it.
Congratulations! You are now complicit and have enabled a dishonest person to victimize someone else with their unchecked dishonest way of doing business. That is what gets me! I cant tell you that you are right. I wont call you an a**hole or any other name but I will call this for what it is. You don't have what it takes to hold somebody that wronged you accountable and that inaction will allow them to do that again to someone else. Small thing to you but a big no no to me.
You are free to be scared(of being sued) and let wrong win this time. I am free to judge this situation as I see it. I can only hope that sooner or later Karma will catch up with this guy & hold accounts payable or that some day, some person has what it takes to see this type of complaint through to where he is financially held accountable.
We are all different and come from different experiences. This has been your experience and you aired it on a thread. Opinions are going to vary in response. I actually hope you at least like the guitar and don't let the experience define it in a negative way. Burn some sage grass & move on.
I personally believe in the truth and put a high value on it. One should not be afraid of the truth. That is where our views take different paths. To me, Being afraid of the truth is always a mistake.
Try to understand where I'm coming from, after 26 yrs in prison , living my life & seeing what I have seen from people, I can only see unchecked abuse as wrong in so many ways, just wrong. Allowing wrong to go uncorrected leaves the problem to remain to victimize someone else.
To you, you have already itemized this as a $50 lie and justified letting the dishonesty go because 'other places are worse' 'the guitar is worth it' and 'you want to keep it'. To me life is more cut and dry & principle holds a higher value than a deal on a guitar I like. Wrong is wrong. People that do wrong must be held accountable, every damn time. Without that accountability for our actions and consequence when wrong is done to others so one may profit things quickly become worse and more people will be victimized, just a surely as this seller will use that same technique again and fool somebody else into buying an EC+ guitar only to find once they get it home it isn't EC+, but then the odds will again be they like the guitar and it isn't worth the hassle of straightening the dishonest seller out. Yea, this guy has found a great way to sell guitars hasn't he?! And you have allowed him to continue to do it.
Congratulations! You are now complicit and have enabled a dishonest person to victimize someone else with their unchecked dishonest way of doing business. That is what gets me! I cant tell you that you are right. I wont call you an a**hole or any other name but I will call this for what it is. You don't have what it takes to hold somebody that wronged you accountable and that inaction will allow them to do that again to someone else. Small thing to you but a big no no to me.
You are free to be scared(of being sued) and let wrong win this time. I am free to judge this situation as I see it. I can only hope that sooner or later Karma will catch up with this guy & hold accounts payable or that some day, some person has what it takes to see this type of complaint through to where he is financially held accountable.
We are all different and come from different experiences. This has been your experience and you aired it on a thread. Opinions are going to vary in response. I actually hope you at least like the guitar and don't let the experience define it in a negative way. Burn some sage grass & move on.
Last edited:
NMA
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2012
- Messages
- 979
- Reaction score
- 996
Bottom line:
Johnny Rocker got ripped off. He now tries his best to justify that he is happy. He's created for himself a wall of denial. That's actually a sad thing to do. Worse he has no interest in whether others get ripped off. Lives a life of denial regarding himself, cares not one bit for others. What an addition to the human race, huh?
Johnny Rocker got ripped off. He now tries his best to justify that he is happy. He's created for himself a wall of denial. That's actually a sad thing to do. Worse he has no interest in whether others get ripped off. Lives a life of denial regarding himself, cares not one bit for others. What an addition to the human race, huh?
Prison guard or prisoner?
Relic61
Well-Known Member
I wasn't an inmate but an officer who just tried to do 'the right thing' everyday I went to work. Because of that stance I was respected by both staff and inmate alike. Although this situation is far removed from a prison scenario, I think disclosing such a personal history helps whoever reads this to understand why I feel so strongly about letting those who wrong others get away with their dishonest ways and allow someone else to get hurt down the line. That's why it is so much more than a difference of $50.
In prison, it was predators preying on the weak, taking their stuff and sometimes worse but always taking their dignity and self respect, leaving the vics to feel beaten and afraid to talk. They know who is scared enough and wont squeal. Emboldened by getting away with wrongdoing, the savage human predator will continue to violate another weak defenseless human until that ability is either taken away or they are confronted with their wrongdoing and are forced into a change of behavior. It is only the brave that stand up to these predators that end their reign over the weaker. That is what it takes to end the cycle of evil in prison. Real life isn't much different. Wrong is always wrong and we have ways to fight it, even if it is too much trouble and effort for some or they just aren't willing to do what should be done, there are avenues available to correct such situations. But it takes conviction and internal fortitude inside. If someone isn't convicted with formed opinion about such things being wrong and unacceptable he is beyond the help and advice of us here.
This sale was dishonest and the response will allow it to happen to somebody else because the dishonest seller has not been held financially accountable in any way for being dishonest. Thus, the cycle continues. Thus my personal disappointment with this story as it reads. Bad author and I hate the ending.
In prison, it was predators preying on the weak, taking their stuff and sometimes worse but always taking their dignity and self respect, leaving the vics to feel beaten and afraid to talk. They know who is scared enough and wont squeal. Emboldened by getting away with wrongdoing, the savage human predator will continue to violate another weak defenseless human until that ability is either taken away or they are confronted with their wrongdoing and are forced into a change of behavior. It is only the brave that stand up to these predators that end their reign over the weaker. That is what it takes to end the cycle of evil in prison. Real life isn't much different. Wrong is always wrong and we have ways to fight it, even if it is too much trouble and effort for some or they just aren't willing to do what should be done, there are avenues available to correct such situations. But it takes conviction and internal fortitude inside. If someone isn't convicted with formed opinion about such things being wrong and unacceptable he is beyond the help and advice of us here.
This sale was dishonest and the response will allow it to happen to somebody else because the dishonest seller has not been held financially accountable in any way for being dishonest. Thus, the cycle continues. Thus my personal disappointment with this story as it reads. Bad author and I hate the ending.
chilipeppermaniac
Well-Known Member
J.R. I came into the thread a bit late. I know you chose to move on and enjoy the guitar you got. When you said you got it with credit card, I was always under the impression that you can use the card companies to dispute your purchase.
Also, I always found it interesting looking at Lefty guitars that I am accustomed to seeing righty. Although the SG and even a Righty Strat upside down don't seem strange to me. But, a Tele, or Les Paul and sometimes Lefty Strats just look funny in pictures. Then of course they look normal once on stage while being played. Go Figure.
Anyway, good luck with your SG.
Also, I always found it interesting looking at Lefty guitars that I am accustomed to seeing righty. Although the SG and even a Righty Strat upside down don't seem strange to me. But, a Tele, or Les Paul and sometimes Lefty Strats just look funny in pictures. Then of course they look normal once on stage while being played. Go Figure.
Anyway, good luck with your SG.
Alex_SG
Well-Known Member
Last edited:
Tobacco Worm
Well-Known Member
I've been seeing the title of this thread in the listings here but judging by the title alone I made the assumption that it was someone wanting to know how to grade an instrument's condition. And with the many replies listed beside the title, I was sure that there were ample answers on how to grand condition. But this morning I opened it and read it from front to back. Lots of drama to be sure, but something that to me, as a former builder and luthier, I noticed has simply been overlooked. It's so glaringly obvious I simply cannot understand why no one saw this....
The instrument in question is black correct? That, my fellow axslingers, is the hardest color to get "straight" (level and smooth) when prepping and painting of any color on the planet. It shows EVERY imperfection. It also shows the slightest amount of surface scratch no matter how light it may be as well. A black pickguard is the same way. Every little scratch will show up no matter how slight. The business with the padded attachment being placed against the painted surface and leaving impressions in the paint is easily understood. Paint never truly dries folks. Even lacquer, that has a high evaporation level, will never really dry. Anything that has a fibrous or petroleum based content will quickly etch itself into lacquer if pressed against it for any length of time. This is normal behavior of a painted surface. Nothing surprising here.
When in the business, the shop owner and I would evaluate instruments when they came in and his was based on appearance, age, collectable status, and rarity. My input was based upon working condition, repairs, alterations, and overall conditions that contributed to a sound instrument that will require little attention from the shop prior to sale.
To rate a black guitar there were always extra limits imposed, and they were often lowered because of the above mentioned issues associated with a black painted surface. By the very nature of the color, black guitars were rated less by the small scratches visible knowing how they are highly noticeable, and more by their overall condition and construction. In short, black instruments will ALWAYS be listed with a "curve" due to the color itself.
Walk through a parking lot any day of the week and when you see a black car, notice how every speck of dust and surface imperfection just stands out. You won't see that on a white car with the same dust and surface. It is simple laws of optic appearance and nothing more. To the human eye, black simply shows any bump, scratch, or dent more than any color on the planet. To make anything more of it is simply ludicrous. I can't believe that no one here noticed this obvious detail from the beginning.
Wade
The instrument in question is black correct? That, my fellow axslingers, is the hardest color to get "straight" (level and smooth) when prepping and painting of any color on the planet. It shows EVERY imperfection. It also shows the slightest amount of surface scratch no matter how light it may be as well. A black pickguard is the same way. Every little scratch will show up no matter how slight. The business with the padded attachment being placed against the painted surface and leaving impressions in the paint is easily understood. Paint never truly dries folks. Even lacquer, that has a high evaporation level, will never really dry. Anything that has a fibrous or petroleum based content will quickly etch itself into lacquer if pressed against it for any length of time. This is normal behavior of a painted surface. Nothing surprising here.
When in the business, the shop owner and I would evaluate instruments when they came in and his was based on appearance, age, collectable status, and rarity. My input was based upon working condition, repairs, alterations, and overall conditions that contributed to a sound instrument that will require little attention from the shop prior to sale.
To rate a black guitar there were always extra limits imposed, and they were often lowered because of the above mentioned issues associated with a black painted surface. By the very nature of the color, black guitars were rated less by the small scratches visible knowing how they are highly noticeable, and more by their overall condition and construction. In short, black instruments will ALWAYS be listed with a "curve" due to the color itself.
Walk through a parking lot any day of the week and when you see a black car, notice how every speck of dust and surface imperfection just stands out. You won't see that on a white car with the same dust and surface. It is simple laws of optic appearance and nothing more. To the human eye, black simply shows any bump, scratch, or dent more than any color on the planet. To make anything more of it is simply ludicrous. I can't believe that no one here noticed this obvious detail from the beginning.
Wade
Col Mustard
Well-Known Member
there it is...
the answer my friends, is blowing in the wind.
the answer my friends, is blowing in the wind.
Jonny Rocker
Active Member
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2010
- Messages
- 132
- Reaction score
- 27
Wade,
I took the black color into consideration. I know all about black showing up all the scratches, dings etc; I have a 1956 VW Beetle that is all black. The pictures were also taken in the bright sunlight which also magnified any cosmetic flaws. The guitar doesn't look that bad indoors.
10 years ago, I purchased a black SG on Ebay. It showed a lot of wear and tear, but it was all disclosed beforehand. It quickly became my favorite guitar, and I still have it. That was my main beef with this guitar. Both the pictures and VG+ condition were deceiving. I have 20 year old SGs that the pickguard (black too) isn't anywhere near as scratched as this one. In addition, I have never seen P90 covers with string grooves cut into them.
NMA, Alex, and others,
As far as me getting screwed, I paid 750 USD for the guitar which came with a HSC. I did not get screwed.
Now, can we put this issue away?
Last edited:
- Status
