What is Wrong Here?

[Relic61]

Besides somebody that likes to take apart vintage instruments & sell everything piece by piece in an attempt to extract as much money as possible out of every guitar (yes that just feels wrong, morally reprehensible & frankly irresponsibly greedy doesn't it?) there is something else that doesn't add up here.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-GIB...DY-ELECTRIC-GUITAR-/142121508162?#description

Can anybody put their finger on it?

VINTAGE GIBSON SG CUSTOM 1969 EZ PROJECT SOLID BODY ELECTRIC GUITAR

The listing item description reads as follows & the issue (maybe issues??) are not addressed in the item description....

HELLO
I AM OFFERING THIS VINTAGE GIBSON SG CUSTOM ELECTRIC GUITAR PROJECT FROM 1969.
THIS IS A FINE GIBSON SOLID BODY ELECTRIC GUITAR.
THE COMPLETE GUITAR HAS BEEN REFINISHED. THE WORK IS PROFESSIONAL QUALITY AND THE GUITAR LOOKS GREAT. I HAVE EXAMINED THIS GUITAR UNDER BLACK LIGHT, I SEE NO EVIDENCE OF ANY REPAIRS OR ALTERATIONS,
THE GROVER TUNERS ARE NOT ORIGINAL AND SOMEONE ADDED A SPACER UNDERNEATH BOTH ROWS OF TUNERS SO THAT THEY WOULD FIT BETTER.
THIS GUITAR PLAYED SMOOTH AND EASY WITH NO ISSUES BEFORE I TOOK IT APART.
THERE ARE NO OTHER REPAIRS NO ALTERATIONS AND NO ISSUES. SHE'S READY FOR YOUR PICKUPS AND PARTS. THIS WILL BE AN EZ PROJECT AND YOU WILL HAVE A VALUABLE VINTAGE GIBSON SG.
YOU WILL NEED TO INSTALL YOUR FAVORITE PICKUPS AND PARTS.
THE FRETS SHOW LIGHT SIGNS OF WEAR .
SHIPS IN A HEAVY ROAD CASE.
SOLD AS IS AS A PROJECT.

 

[SG standard]

Besides somebody that likes to take apart vintage instruments & sell everything piece by piece in an attempt to extract as much money as possible out of every guitar...

Does that work? I would've guessed that value was higher as a complete instrument, assuming it's all in good condition - but I know nothing about this market... But logically, if the parts are worth more, then it'll cost more to buy a vintage instrument in 'kit form' than it would to buy a complete instrument. That seems strange.

What bothers me most is this: THIS GUITAR PLAYED SMOOTH AND EASY WITH NO ISSUES BEFORE I TOOK IT APART.

So why take it apart & try to sell it in an unplayable condition?

Why are the holes for the stop bar so far back from the bridge? Didn't '69 Customs all come with long Maestros?

Oddest of all, the pick guard seems to be carved into the top.... Or is it just the photos?

 

[smitty_p]

For one thing, there are no nibs. Shouldn't this guitar have nibs, even very slight ones? Of course, it may have been refretted. I'm also trying to figure out why part of a batwing pickguard has been glued to the guitar. That's not a normal small pickguard. On the auction site, the back of the headstock shows no serial number. Also, I'm not sure, but is that the right kind of neck attachment for this year?

Am I close?

 

[Relic61]

You both touched on all the areas I noticed. She looks like a refret that wasn't done properly for a bound guitar for one (you take the binding off, refret & reapply the binding or do some tang work but you don't push the tang through or cut through the binding! Thats just amateur!),

And not only has part of the pickguard been cut & left glued onto the guitar to resemble a bastardized version of an original 61 style guard, it also has that small piece glued in between the neck & neck pup that says "Restored by Valdez" which a 69 never had because they came with the large batwing style pickguards!

That now means that either the glued in plastic all comes off so the original type pickguard can go back on or you need to leave things be & try to cover those 3 pup routes up with mounting rings.

And as for those stud post mounts, they were also added incorrectly after the fact also & it was also my belief this originally had the large gold Lyre Vibrola.

Nice job fellerz!

 

[Tony M]

No way those pickup routes were done at the factory either.

 

[Relic61]

No way those pickup routes were done at the factory either.

Tony, I'm also curious about how you feel about folks like this doing what they do to a vintage guitar. What is your take on that business??

Although this guitar obviously had some mod issues before disassembly & parting out, there are many other original condition vintage Gibsons that this guy & several others like him gave the same treatment.

Just curious to hear your elaboration on the topic.

 

[Tony M]

Here we go...

First of all, I do not see a vintage (old, used) instrument as a sacred
cow to be worshipped from afar because it is a "part of history".

I knew a guy who had an old Les Paul in his "collection".
I asked him if he ever played out with it.
He told me he couldn't because the tuners were shot.
I asked him why he didn't replace them.
He glared at me and said it would destroy the value of the guitar.
My response was, "If the instrument is unplayable, it has no value.".

Why is an old instrument worth more than a new one?
Does it play better? Does it sound better?
I have 2 ES 335s.
They were made in 1995 and 2003.
They are the 2 best feeling and best sounding 335s I have ever played.

The 335 that Mr. Clapton played the Crossroads solo on.
Probably very valuable?
A used guitar that has been around the world a number of times
and was beat to **** by a speed freak meth head guitar player.
Why would I even want that?
Will it enable me to play the way he did?
While I'm ranting, what is so damn wonderous about the crossroads solo?
There are at least a dozen people right here that can play it note for note.

As far as actually answering the question, if one is in the business of buying/selling
guitars, and parting one out widens the profit margin, I see nothing wrong with that.

A 58 V - Super valuable - Why? Because there are so few of them? There are so few
original V's and Explorers because nobody bought them and production was stopped.
When you come down to it, they are the Edsels of the guitar world.
You can go all metaphysical and say guitars are made from trees and trees are living things.
So was the chair I am sitting in. A guitar is a tool. Wood and metal. It has no mystical,
sacred, voodoomojo thingy. You don't put it in a glass case and "show" it. You drag it
into a biker bar and beat the crap out of it all night.

"How can you say that?"
"There are only 273 (?) vintage 59 bursts in the world!"
Yes that is true but there are probably 100,000 Les Pauls out
there that were made between 1967 and yesterday at 2pm.
Are you telling me that none of these feel or sound
as good as the 273 (?) that were made in 1959?

I do not deny that there is a vintage market out there and that
these guitars sell for hundreds of thousands of dollars.
I just don't for the life of me understand it.

 

[Relic61]

Very interesting!

I'll be weighing this thoughtfully....

 

[Raiyn]

Here we go...

First of all, I do not see a vintage (old, used) instrument as a sacred
cow to be worshipped from afar because it is a "part of history".

I knew a guy who had an old Les Paul in his "collection".
I asked him if he ever played out with it.
He told me he couldn't because the tuners were shot.
I asked him why he didn't replace them.
He glared at me and said it would destroy the value of the guitar.
My response was, "If the instrument is unplayable, it has no value.".

Why is an old instrument worth more than a new one?
Does it play better? Does it sound better?
I have 2 ES 335s.
They were made in 1995 and 2003.
They are the 2 best feeling and best sounding 335s I have ever played.

The 335 that Mr. Clapton played the Crossroads solo on.
Probably very valuable?
A used guitar that has been around the world a number of times
and was beat to **** by a speed freak meth head guitar player.
Why would I even want that?
Will it enable me to play the way he did?
While I'm ranting, what is so damn wonderous about the crossroads solo?
There are at least a dozen people right here that can play it note for note.

As far as actually answering the question, if one is in the business of buying/selling
guitars, and parting one out widens the profit margin, I see nothing wrong with that.

A 58 V - Super valuable - Why? Because there are so few of them? There are so few
original V's and Explorers because nobody bought them and production was stopped.
When you come down to it, they are the Edsels of the guitar world.
You can go all metaphysical and say guitars are made from trees and trees are living things.
So was the chair I am sitting in. A guitar is a tool. Wood and metal. It has no mystical,
sacred, voodoomojo thingy. You don't put it in a glass case and "show" it. You drag it
into a biker bar and beat the crap out of it all night.

"How can you say that?"
"There are only 273 (?) vintage 59 bursts in the world!"
Yes that is true but there are probably 100,000 Les Pauls out
there that were made between 1967 and yesterday at 2pm.
Are you telling me that none of these feel or sound
as good as the 273 (?) that were made in 1959?

I do not deny that there is a vintage market out there and that
these guitars sell for hundreds of thousands of dollars.
I just don't for the life of me understand it.

Very interesting. Very anti-corksniffer (as I read it) and for the most part I agree with it. I do however think that instruments of significance such as Clapton's "The Fool", EVH's Frankencaster, and Billy Gibbon's Furry Explorer (and a dozen more iconics) ought to command a price above that of a contemporaneous axe and that it ought to be a quite significant premium.

 

[cork sniffer]

First of all, I do not see a vintage (old, used) instrument as a sacred
cow to be worshipped from afar because it is a "part of history".

And YOU shouldn't but the next bloke can, and he'll be as correct with his thinking as you.
If you were a spotty faced kid way back when the XYZ guitar was produced and you lusted for it (or had one but foolishly sold it) and found one in original condition today you'd probably want to hold and preserve it's originality. You'd probably consider it more valuable than somebody who has no personal association with the "FAMED" XYZ.
About 10 years ago I was lucky enough to buy a 1969 Triumph 650 almost mint condition and never restored. It's exactly like the new one I purchased back in 1969 so to me it's a sacred thing to ride short distances when the sun is high and the road is clear, never to have a spanner touch by any other than me. The next bloke will look at my 69 as an old heap of crap and he'll be equally correct in his opinion as me.

So those looking for old instruments to put behind glass and those looking for old instruments to update or paint with a brush are both competing for the same animal BUT the one with the most $$$ will usually win. It's a big game so don't take it too badly if the other bloke wins, you may get lucky next time.

 

[smitty_p]

Hmmm...the listing has been pulled down because "there was an error in the listing."

I will say this...since that guitar has already been significantly "affected," I would seriously have considered buying it as it would have been a great candidate for the SG project I'm concocting.

 

[DrBGood]

Everything is wrong on that SG. To me it looks like a plastic molded body. You'd GIVE it to me, I wouldn't want it. Even the back plate has been painted with a brush !

 

[Tony M]

Very interesting. Very anti-corksniffer (as I read it) and for the most part I agree with it. I do however think that instruments of significance such as Clapton's "The Fool", EVH's Frankencaster, and Billy Gibbon's Furry Explorer (and a dozen more iconics) ought to command a price above that of a contemporaneous axe and that it ought to be a quite significant premium.

Yes, but not because they are better than other guitars.
I have no doubt that all 3 of my SG's play better than
the fool does at this point. The guitars you mentioned,
and others like them (The Hendrix Woodstock Strat comes to mind.)
have a value other than their worth as good working instruments,
which for the most part, these iconic guitars no longer are.
They are museum pieces.
The thing that would stop me from taking the fool and playing
a bar gig with it would not be it's value. I wouldn't play a gig with
it because it is probably no longer gig worthy.

 

[Raiyn]

Everything is wrong on that SG. To me it looks like a plastic molded body. You'd GIVE it to me, I wouldn't want it. Even the back plate has been painted with a brush !

Perfect for someone like this........

 

[Relic61]

Hmmm...the listing has been pulled down because "there was an error in the listing."

I will say this...since that guitar has already been significantly "affected," I would seriously have considered buying it as it would have been a great candidate for the SG project I'm concocting.

I'm with you on this Smitty. That guitar was messed with before being taken apart & parted out so in my mind, these are the types of candidates for customization that bring no ethical conflict within myself if I were I to have at it & customize it so it works for me.

Yet this particular guitar has been so messed with & so stripped of original parts & finish that its value should be genuinely skewed to the low side, if only people looking at it understood just that I seen what is wrong here.

Let's face it, first reaction is to say 'Gee,... a '69 SG Custom is worth around $3,000', 'So all I have to do is put it back together with period correct parts & I'll have all that value wrapped up in that guitar',.. like magic right! But in reality the minuses will start to add up & detract from it's value such as,..

Nothing original is left on the guitar so anything added will never make it original again, period. That means it should never be worth the same as an original '69 SG Custom regardless of what expensive vintage parts are put on it! So throw that $3000 fantasy right out the window bruddah! Peeuuew! By By! And by the way, the numbers are obviously worse & less motivating on vintage guitars of lesser value than a $3000 SG Custom.

2nd, they fvk'd the binding up & it looks like a$$! For me,.. That needs to be fixed. "$$$" (that's a money quote. Get it?? Money, quote? "$$$" Ugh! never mind)

Then, are ya gonna go with Vintage period correct parts or new modern replacement parts? Both are going to add up & I'm not sure things like spending $350 or so for each of the 3 pickups will bring a lateral climb in value at this point. Same for the hardware, pickguard & back control plate.

And we still haven't mentioned trying to nicely patch those drilled stud mount holes & purchase a Gold Lyre Vibrola & return that to original condition.

Vintage Era correct or not, this is all going to be more $$$

That said, if one was willing to put the effort & money into rehabbing this correctly to return it to period correct condition, I think it would be so close to a wash by the time you do all those things above, and maybe even a decent loss considering it would still be non-original everything & lack the real value of a true original condition '69 SG Custom, that doing this to obtain instant equity or value in a 'bargain' SG husk really is no longer a feasible end result on these types of 'projects'.

However, if you did like the guitar the way it is & weren't going to invest in correcting the binding, pick guard, & stud posts, nor spend the additional cash on vintage correct pups, bridge, plastic, tuners & Vibrola, you are still going to spend a decent amount of money just putting this together only to have a cobbed non original SG of dubious value.

Either way, if you buy it & you like it, none of this should matter. Just don't expect to sell it afterwards to anybody that knows what they are doing for $3000!

To me, trying to restore these types of guitars to period correct using vintage parts seldom adds up or makes as much sense as buying an actual vintage guitar in original condition.

And, I can never shake the feeling that the business of taking old guitars apart & selling all the parts separately to make more money just seems like a slimy business motivated by greed. Greed is just not a virtue I support or admire from afar.

That said, this particular guitar doesn't fall neatly into things because it was sooo messed with before being husked out. But I've seen many others like it with their original parts for sale in another listing at the same time to know that there are no scruples involved before parting a usable original condition vintage guitar out in all it's many pieces to make some cash.

Things are only original once. As original condition gets harder to find it creates a very real value on things left that are still original, just like Cork Sniffer (Dude what a name!!) demonstrates in his Triumph quest. Not to value such things seems well, I'll just say wrong to me.

In the end...
People are free to do what they want.
So am I.

 

[Chubbles]

I would have trusted him. He has a black light. Oooooooh, science! (ahhh, not.)

 

[Hector]

Is it just me, or is the headstock way too shiny? Looks almost like a MIC copy?

 

[Relic61]

Is it just me, or is the headstock way too shiny? Looks almost like a MIC copy?

It was "restored" by someone named 'Valdez' so basically nothing is original.

 

[Hector]

So, Valdez is the destroyer of vintage Gibsons... take a look at victim number 2....

 

[eS.G.]

Hey this place has some nice stuff------and it has all its bits and bobs on it-------

for a fraction of the chunked up stuff Valdez the destroyer is pawning off.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-USA...97c3812&pid=100005&rk=5&rkt=6&sd=172350975446